Wednesday, May 5, 2010

The Candidate - Community Call

Black Rock LOST Podcast: Season 6 episode 14 of ABC's TV show, LOST. Curt, Dan, Nancy Drew, Lost Lindsey and our friends from the Smoke Hatch along with James. So, did they announce Jack IS the guy or was it Locke? Either way we try to decipher the latest installment


MIB's real intentions are revealed and our list of Candidates just got a little shorter.


eddy said...

still yet to watch episode but
first post woo!

eddy said...

reposted from facebook:

so let me get this straight. Bernard already had looked after Locke for emergency dental work 3 yrs ago. So then Bernard knew Jack was across the aisle on 815. Did Bernard also see Locke on the plane? So later did Rose mention to him that a John Locke came to her and she got him a job? Does Bernard know more than he says. Telling phrase -
"maybe you're onto something here",
"now i can't break patient confidentiality (RULES??) and tell you something i shouldn't..."
"hope you find what you're looking for"
is this like the rules like Eloise Widmore in this timeline, although she seems to be trying to PREVENT Desmond from proceeding further, at least for the moment? Bernard does give Jack a nudge towards Anthony Cooper tho

Bob said...

Okay - couple of things.
1. Remember Ben drained the water under barracks to release Smokey. Was the water keeping him contained there also?
2. Seems Smokey could have just taken out everyone around sub Smokey style and they wouldn't have had to stage an assualt or hurry.
3. When Kate's reaching for keys she could have just grabbed his nearby hand and dragged him toward her.
4. Smokey can't kill the candidates but they obviously can be killed. A lot of people were saying they couldn't be killed but I think they just can't kill themselves - like Michael was trying.

warningtrax said...

@ Bob

Haven't listened to the podcast yet, but I understand it as a candidate can only die as the result of actions taken by another candidate, whether deliberate or not.

Robert_R said...

What did I take from this episode? It has firmed up some beliefs I have about the show's ending. I am more firmly convinced now that the AT will be the *surviving* time line, and will be everyone's "happily ever after". Why? Because of how the characters are ending up. Ben's nice, Cooper's got the fate he deserved in the other 'verse (worse than death, AND Sawyer will soon find he has no one to hate on and can go have his cup of coffee), Jack has what he wants, Sayid, Charlie and Kate are in prison (for the moment). I feel like the destruction of MiB is now a narrative imperative (Justice, you know). fLocke must've known that his plan failed by sensing that the "cork" was still stuck in the neck of the bottle.

There was a lot about Trust in this episode. Not only the idea of trusting someone, but even trust misplaced in the untrustworthy. Sawyer's inability to trust Jack is the mistake that kills the Kwons and Sayid (not sure about Frank, maybe him too.) Jack gets to throw "I wish you believed me" back at Locke, and Locke noticeably pauses before his adios.

How appropriate for Christian to leave his kids an Empty Box. But this show has already taught us what such boxes hold, as with Rousseau's music box and Kate's time capsule lunchbox. They hold memories, and in this case, maybe even *collective memory*, as we see Jack and Claire both reflected in the box's mirror.

Finally we have both Sayid and Jin sacrificing themselves so that the rest of the group can survive. I'm assuming that there is redemption in that sort of act, so noble are they. Sets us up very nicely for what's to come. I can't wait.

Robert R said...

^ reposted from BRP's facebook discussion board

Robert R said...

Oh, and I keep reading about a "Watership Down" reference in this episode, but darned if I can find it. Must be somewhere in the subtext. (See what I did there?)

Bob said...

Nice Robert ;-)

Miguel said...

For someone that doesn't like technology, MIB sure knows how to use technology to rig a bomb.

Claire met her father in the original time line, but in this time line she says she never met him. I think the important thing about the jewelry box is that it has a mirror in it. I think staring in to the mirror later on might bring back some island memories for her.

I'm still not convinced that MIB wanted to kill all the candidates. Why wouldn't he kill Claire? He let her live for 3 years and at the end of this episode he could have just killed her at the dock. He just walked away from her and said he was gonna finish what he started. I'm not sure why he had the bomb but I don't think it was gonna be used to kill them.

warningtrax said...

According to Lostpedia, we saw Locke wheeling himself out of the hospital a day or two prior to ATL November 1st, 2004 (The Candidate). Interestingly, on MTL Thursday, November 4th, 2004, the hatch on the island is blown. I have to keep reminding myself that in the ATL, the characters are not just vaguely “remembering” events from another reality, they are “remembering” FUTURE events of another reality.

More than ever, I think the final confrontation and resolution of this story will occur back in MTL 2004 and ripple through MTL and ATL 2007. Our new and improved “fully realized” ATL 815ers will somehow make it back to the island reality, but they willl be “local time”, ie. 2004. This gives them ample time to save the world along with Sayid, Charlie, Jin, Sun and a bunch of others. However, the Marshall, Boone and other early victims are still screwed under this crackpot theory....

Bob said...

Littleton name was crossed off so, as he said previously, he doesn't need Claire dead or alive. She's just fun to have around. ;-)

goldbeadz said...

I was so sad when Jin & Sun died and felt it was contrived. Wouldn't Sun force him to live and raise their daughter instead of Sun's mother?
I keep going back to the line -- it only ends once, everything else is just progress. Does Jack become the next Jacob with Locke remaining as Smokey? Are they locked in a perpetual struggle? Do the others stay as the new others?
Is that progress?

Anonymous said...

Weren't Richard, Ben, and Miles heading to the barracks for explosives to blow up the plane? Perhaps THEY had placed the explosives on the plane and were intervened by Widmore's crew.
I'm also curious as to what happens to Locke's / Christian's / Yeme's body when smokey leaves his host to do his smoke killing. Let's hope we can get the real Locke back into his own body. His spirit may still be "locked" inside his body.

warningtrax said...

@ Anonymous

I believe they were after grenades.

Anonymous said...

Greek Mythos:
Pandora's (Claire's) box given by "Zeus" (Christian). When opened by her, unleashed many terrible things on mankind – ills, toils, and sickness. One item that did not escape the jar - HOPE.

JayJay said...

I just read up on how to play backgammon. It says each player must bring their pieces back home and then take them off the board. Does this sound like the game that MIB and Jacob are playing. They let the Oceanic 6 off the island to go home, now they return and it seems the pieces are being taken off the board. Jin, Sun, Sayid.

If it takes the candidates to kill each other, then when there's one left standing. He won't be able to kill himself or be killed by the nemesis. Therefore living forever on the island as a protector. I sure hope we don't see the show end by Jack taking his roles as Jacob and writing his own list of candidates in the cave.

Ryan said...

My take on the bomb and why it worked in these circumstances:

MIB can't kill them directly so a bomb he rigged wouldn't work outright which is why he fooled them into touching it by use of the timer as Jack thought.

MIB needed them all together and in an enclosed space. If they had not touched it then it wouldn't have went off but because Sawyer did touch it the direct action of MIB was taken off it so it did work and exploded. More on that later.

Once Sawyer touched it and it became active the enclosed space part of the plan came into play. As we see with Richard people touched by Jacob can't kill themselves but can kill each other. Jack could light the fuse and kill Richard as long as he didn't stay. Once Sawyer pulled the wires the bomb could go off and even if the explosion didn't get them right away then being on a sinking sub would.

Now technically speaking this tricks Sawyer into committing suicide so I wonder if Sawyer had hugged the bomb then it wouldn't have went off? That didn't happen and you couldn't expect Sawyer to do that since he had no knowledge of this "touch of Jacob"

The best thing to do would have been for Jack to pulls the wires because if he did and held onto it then it wouldn't go off but in this situation who's going to do all that figuring? He already figured out that the best thing to do was not touch it at all.

As I said in essence Sawyer was fooled into committing suicide so either you can be tricked into it as long as you have no intent to do so or events would have taken effect where the direct explosion would not kill him but the sinking sub would have since that is a separate albeit linked action.

Robert R said...

@JayJay - I'm not sure how gratifying it will become to be having conversations of this nature, but you pose a question that I do have an opinion about.

I sure hope we don't see the show end by Jack taking his roles as Jacob and writing his own list of candidates in the cave.

I think that your scenario is exactly where Jack's fate will lead him. At which point, Jack will have a choice to make.

If this happens, I think the clues we've received so far will leave us with Jack choosing not to play, the only winning move.

JayJay said...

How did MIB learn how to rig a time-bomb. I thought he didn't like technology.

JayJay said...

There is also some inconsistency with how much time has actually elaspe in the flash-sideways. Claire said she got off the plane last week. But didn't Desmond say a couple of weeks in the previous episode.

Eric Weissen said...

This episode jumped the shark, so they're running from fake Locke and then they are freed by fake Locke and then follow Fake Locke.

Very poor story telling. I haven't invested 6 years for this type of wishy washy A Team type of episode!

An excellent reveal at the end and a death brought it back but am still concerned that this thing has run out of steam.

Mairuzu said...

The more I read these comments, the less I liked this episode in hindsight. :)

But I'm betting that Jack will be the new Jacob with Locke as the new MiB. They've ALREADY foreshadowed a lot of similarities to these roles throughout the entire series.

The BIG question now is, will Hurley be the new Richard? heh

Eric Weissen said...

don't count Richard out. I'm sure he will come into play shortly.

Dan, Curt is it me or are there just too many pieces in place?

personally think that they will try and sew it all up in the last 2 hours!

Great Podcast!

Trollonymous said...

First of all, Sawyer's leadership decisions have led to death so he is now guilty of the same crime for which he holds a grudge against Jack. How will he deal with this when he wakes up?

The reason the MiB knew that some candidates were still alive was because he was still imprisoned, he doesn't need a vehicle to physically leave the Island but as long as he convinces others that he does he is able to work his long con. Very 'Quantum Leap' like.

I guess my prediction of the MiB helping Jack find his father's corpse is wrong but I do think he will prey upon Claire's obvious abandonment issues in order to have her kill the remaining candidates with her Annie Oakley-esque shooting skill. This will be in direct contrast to the Alt timeline where Jack and Claire are establishing their familial relationship.

Kate was shot in order to get Jack into the sub to treat her wound as the MiB knew he couldn't convince him to get on board. Perhaps Jack would have taken temporary refuge in the sub in order to escape Widmore's men or even a soaking wet MiB but it's pretty clear that Locke played them and that he didn't trust Sawyer, "You're the best liar I've ever met James."

I don't think the MiB had any supernatural special foreknowledge of the C4 on the plane or the fact that the losties would try to escape without him, you wouldn't need to be Sherlock Holmes to deduce those events.

The questions surrounding the nature of Anthony Cooper's intentions at the time of Locke's accident will probably remain a mystery in the same way that Mr.Paik's intended fate for Jin in the Alt timeline may have been the same in the original timeline, if not for the same reasons.

Lastly I think the mysterious boy is some sort of manifestation of the Island itself. It may well be a maturing Jacob but the addition of a "ticking clock" device to the plotline at this point would bother me, I mean, what's the point of Jacob requiring a candidate to replace him if he is able to replace himself? Then again, at what point does the candidate become the new Jacob? When all the other candidates are eliminated? A 'Highlander' "there can be only one", type of thing? Is this why Kate is no longer considered a candidate? So she can be spared the role of rival to maintain the role of love interest?
Or is Jack already the chosen one as hinted at by Sayid, (the Iraqi suicide bomber who saves lives).

Lastly, and I mean it this time, the MiB claimed that he led Jack to water disguised as Christian but as someone noted earlier, he actually almost led him off a cliff to his death. Jack discovered the caves after following the sound of ice clinking in a glass, as similarly heard earlier in the episode when Christian was drinking and scolding Jack for fighting. Christian's ghost? Or the MiB mimicking a sound Jack would recognise?

Lots to chew on.

Robert R said...

@Troll, I believe your insight serves you well. I don't disagree with anything in your post, except maybe the bit about the mysterious boy. There is ABC stuff out right now which might help you decide one way or another about that, but I'm not going to argue it here. As for the rest, I think a lot like you do.

JayJay said...

The extra 30mins of the LOST finale, is for the survivor reunion show with Jeff Probst. Who will announce the soul survivor.

Trollonymous said...


Robert R,
thanks for the direction, if I read you right, are you referring to the press release stating that the actor who plays the mysterious kid had been cast to play a young Jacob in next week's episode? If so, it could be a bit of misdirection, for which the Lost producers have previous history.

I like the rapidly growing reincarnation of Locke idea I've seen on Lostpedia. That would satisfy a lot of fans and would fit in with Lockes statement to Paulo that nothing stays buried on that Island for long. And it would vindicate my words when iI said not to write off the old boxman just yet. He also deserves a right of rebuttal after all the rotten things the MiB said about him. He has been a superb,almost Dickensian character and the audience also deserves to see him return. In Hearts and Minds from the first season, Charlie tells Jack if he were to put his trust in one man to save them all, it would be John Locke.
Prophetic stuff from the annoying little hobbit. You All Ev'rybody indeed.

The Lost Verticals site has been fantastic lately by the way.

Nancy Drew said...

Wow! Lots to consider with the comments here! (And a big thank you for some great distraction during a boring day of testing at work, haha)

I think what got me thinking the most was the mention on here about Ben draining the water at the barracks and that leading to Smoky attacking Keamy's team. I can't really see that being the reason for the murky water in the temple--especially since it's three years later--but one would think that it ties in there somewhere and might be a clue. I'd love to know the full translation of that door that lead to the pool of water.

I also have to wonder, with the direction the ending is headed in, if the end will mean resolution, because I am not seeing where it will and that might be what the line said by Jacob means......"it only ends once. Everything else is just progress...." The end of the show and the resolution of stopping MIB are probably going to be two different things. As long as he's on that island, he'll always try to get off of it and to keep the balance, Jacob (or a form of Jacob) will always be there. I'm betting that MIB is a constant and Jacob a variable, but I could be way off on that.

Miguel said...

It seems like Ben foreshadowed this episodes deaths when he questioned what the island will do when it's done with them. Sayid was no longer a candidate since he went rouge and got claimed. The candidate that will replace Jacob has to want to be on the island and live for the island. Once Jin and Sun were reunited he promised never to leave her and there was no way he or her would willingly stay on the island, so the island was done with them. Jack seems like the perfect candidate since he believes in the island and really has nothing to live for back in the real world. Him staying on island gives him a more fulfilling life in AT.

How did Smokey know about the C4 in the plane? He obviously knew about it before he went on the plane since he took the watch before boarding the plane. I guess these events might have already happened before and he is trying to get a different outcome. It seems he might have the same knowledge that Widmore has about events happening at a specific time.

Ryan said...

A lot of MIB's knowledge comes from being able to scan people. He's like Miles but tenfold so him knowing about the bomb on the place or rigging it comes from there. If he can drain every bit of knowledge of Locke's life then there's little he can't do. He scans Frank and voila! he can fly a plane.

Dole said...

I'm listening to ep 6-14, you guys are talking about the submarine I'm no submariner, but I was in the Navy, and I do work on boats and with divers all the time so I have a tiny bit of knowledge.

Now Lost isn't an exact science, and they get stuff wrong all the time, but just some info:

You can use the "Kilo" class military submarine for an analog of what they might use. Although on the show Widmore's sub seems to be about 70 feet in length, while a Kilo class is more like 220 feet.

Every sub that is not a nuclear sub is diesel electric. There are no nuclear subs in private use. There are no nuclear vessels at ALL in private use, save a single freighter under close scrutiny. This limits some aspects of the sub, specifically that it can't dive as deeply as a nuclear sub can. Nor can it stay submerged indefinitely.

Now the sub was maybe 5 minutes out of the dock when the bomb was discovered. I bet they were only at about 30 feet down. They could not have made it far down at all.

Also - Had they been any further than that - there is no way that a human could have overcome the pressure at the bombsite and made it to the outside. The pressure would have ripped a human apart much past that depth. At 100 feet, the pressure is 43PSI. So it would be like 6200 lbs coming through a 1 foot by 1 foot hole (too small for a human).

On that size sub you would have maybe 15 seconds before the whole thing is full of water, honestly that would be the time to GTFO.

Also at any further than about 50 feet only maybe experienced freedivers could actually survive.

I think Frank is a goner.

I also think that they would have been just fine if Sawyer hadn't touched it.

Down to 3 Candidates!!!!

Or is it 4 - if baby Kwon is the name...

Robert R said...

@Dole - you were right about Frank. I just listened to Jorge's podcast, and they had the script. Frank is a dead.

Not sure if this is worth the typing effort, but what the hey. When the 16-tear old that lives at my house and I were watching the ep on Tues. There was a moment where Jack came ashore from the wreck and I screamed "KHAAAAAAAN!!", an homage to Shatner in Star Trek II. Come to find out, through Jorge Garcia's podcast, that they actually shot Jack shouting "Looooocke!!" as a callback to The Wrath of Khan.

Like I said, probably not worth the typing, yet extremely gratifying to me.

Trollonymous said...

But it's a magic Island and so is the water around it. Nobody gets the bends and the pressurised room Charlie drowned in (In the Looking Glass)should never have completely filled up with water, but it did.

The MiB doesn't need to know how to fly a plane to get off the Island, He isn't stuck because of a lack of transport and his scanning ability must have some kind of limit. Faraday stated that the Losties were the variables that screwed up his own calculations. Their actions are not completely predictable. It wouldn't be much of a game between the two of them if they both knew exactly what people would do when faced with a decision. The MiB's scanning ability is his version of a racing form. It tells him how all the riders and racers have performed under different conditions in the past. I imagine Jacob's Lighthouse is his form indicator, so to speak. They can study the forms and back a horse (candidates, claims) but all races have rules and even these very powerful entities must obey them.

Or not. We'll find out next week.

Eric Weissen said...

I think we're over analysing this show. At this stage they are giving us excellent narrative that we should take at face value.

For example Locke has left them alive because he is undertaking a long, long con.

It has been his plan all along to assume Locke's body, kill Jacob and then kill get the candidates to willingly 'commit suicide'.

As Jack said he needs them to be dead to leave.

He knew they were not dead perhaps because he senses them, for their life force is the very thing that keeps him in bondage. As long as candidates live to replace Jacob then Smokey is locked up!

Rewatch of this episode helped, Locke picking up the watch and various dialogue.

Smokey's modus operandi is assigning his intentions or actions to others or speaking in the third person.

Now he's pissed s his long con didn't pay off and wants to break some rules. No doubt next episode we will see Richard and Miles come to the rescue!

marlene said...

Now I understand why they underplayed Jin and Sun's reunion a week ago. They were saving up for the big death scene - and it worked. Big sobb!

Ryan said...

Q:If MIB wanted the candidates dead and couldn't kill them himself why didn't he let them get on the plane and turn the key? Why relocate the explosives to the sub and rely on one of them finding them and trying to defuse them to blow that up instead? Why did Widmore wire the plane to explode anyway?

A: Jack pushed MIB into the water with no problem but an explosion right beside him didn't make him flinch. Maybe a candidate has the power to hurt him that Jacob doesn't? It didn't work with Sayid because of his claimed status or because he isn't the one and Jack is.

MIB didn't get on the sub and didn't want to be on the plane. What if he dies (whatever that means for him) if he is with them when they die?

Anonymous said...

I know Roald Dahl came up a few weeks ago after the Wonka song. Seems there may be a lot more to it.

Not really a spoiler, but a very interesting theory.