Accross the Sea - Community Call - Fixed
Black Rock LOST Podcast: Season 6 episode 15 of ABC's TV show, LOST. Curt, Dan, Nancy Drew, Lost Lindsey and our friends from the Smoke Hatch along with James. We get to meet the original protector of the island and see the first passing of that responsibility.
MP3
We see this canonical tale as not only the first, but the template by which it will play out, forever. Lots to chew on here. Some bonus material at the end of the recording as well.
45 comments:
Woohoo first post.
whew, I was so afraid this would be unfixable. Not that I doubted anyone's technical savvy,and I know that the problem was just discovered. I was just afraid that in a few days I was going to hear "sorry folks, the discussion wasn't recorded". Can't wait to listen tomorrow.
Karyn
Across the sea......it's very similar to "Beyond the sea", as in the song. Coincidentally, it was first composed as "La Mer", and has different lyrics than the English version of the song. This is the song that Shannon translated for Sayid from Danielle Rousseau's papers. The french lyrics with English translations are:
La mer
The Sea
Qu'on voit danser le long des golfes clairs
That one sees dancing along the clear gulfs
A des reflets d'argent
Has silver reflections
La mer
The Sea
Des reflets changeants
Changing reflections
Sous la pluie
Under the rain
La mer
The Sea
Au ciel d'été confond
In the summer sky merge
Ses blancs moutons
Its white sheep
Avec les anges si purs
With such pure angels
La mer bergère d'azur
The sea, shepherdess of azure
Infinie
Infinite
Voyez
See
Près des étangs
Close to the ponds
Ces grands roseaux mouillés
These large wet reeds
Voyez
See
Ces oiseaux blancs
These white birds
Et ces maisons rouillées
And these rusted houses
La mer
The Sea
Les a bercés
Has rocked them
Le long des golfes clairs
Along the clear gulfs
Et d'une chanson d'amour
And with a song of love
La mer
The Sea
A bercé mon cœur pour la vie
Has soothed my heart for life
Why do doctors check patients eyes with a light? Jack does to Locke, Zoe does it to Desmond. I'm sure there's various instances where this happens. When I go see a doctor they check my heart and my mouth, but never my eyes like that.
I've not listened to the podcast yet. I fear that if anybody defends that hour of egregious codswallop that I might stamp on my MP3 player.
I need time to simmer.
@Jay-Jay,
I'm not totally sure but if I heard right on the podcast, I believe doctors flash light in their patients' eyes in order to show them their future.
Major hat tips to Titus Welliver and Alison janney. having worked with two of the most sublimely scripted television work in history(the west wing and Deadwood, one wonders how they managed to get this one with a straight face.
So this is what lost has become, an island sitting on a magic light that we all have a little bit of inside us and if you go into it will do something to you worse than dying and magic wine and incantations and other such pap.
What a dreadful shame.
After years of theorising , it's ultimately a show without a theme, a show about nothing.
My expectations had been lowered this season, but last night was worse than I could ever have expected.
At about the 20 minute mark last night, my wife said 'how can you watch this crap?'. And for once I didn't have an answer.
I'm glad the complete version of the initial reaction was able to be recovered. The audio sounds much better than prior podcasts.
I think Desmond is destined to be tossed into the cave of light but I'm not sure what he'll become. Perhaps, he will defeat MIB and take the place of both MIB and Jacob to protect the island.
Once the series is complete, I think we will all view the flash sideways in a different light. We will be able to generate some theories and find more easter eggs.
Please cease the use of the word symbology.
Symbology is kind of an unword, but may inaccurately refer to the study or the use or a system of symbols and symbolism.
You frequently use this word when you clearly mean symbolism - The practice of representing things by means of symbols or of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events, or relationships.
Oh yeah... I think Jacob is and has been the villain of mankind for a long time.
Smokette (thanks robert) was doing right by the light, no intentions of leaving the island. Ancient egyptians called her Ma'at. Holding the scale and balancing good and evil. She wore an ostrich feather in her hair. Check out the feather in opening sequence. She had the ability to wipe out a village, then come home and loom a nice throw rug for the boy's room. Problem now is MIB is the holder of the scale and wants to leave the island...jacob on duty to not let that happen...what if there's a way to separate MIB from the light and dark, and let him leave (albeit, a reincarnated titus), I have to admit I feel a little empathy for MIB. Maybe Hurley will say "hey dude, why don't you _________ (insert clever solution here).
@Bill:
This is why I suggested my theory that I'm guessing that the ending will be something along what I like to call the 'amicable ending'. The one where the ALTERNATE TIMELINE finally has a purpose: MiB will end up somehow transported to the alternative timeline where the island is underwater and there is no light to protect away from humanity, allowing him to finally get off the Island unencumbered by its protector. Meanwhile, in our current timeline, Jacob's successor can remain to renew the job of protecting the island and history has the ability repeat itself in the sense that the river cave of light remains for someone to protect away from humanity's scientific endeavors to understand and utilize it the way MiB's camp (and later, DHARMA) tried to.
yes dan I like that idea. and we get to see widmore melt probably(insert jin thank you here)
Did anyone notice that the language suddenly changed in the beginning. It suddenly changed from Latin to English after the spookyn effect music. Was this magic.
I think that Smokey has been on the island as long as the light has (light/dark). I think that Rousseau was right in saying that the smoke monster was like an island security system because it seems to want to protect this island from the greed and evil that comes with mankind. I think that "Mother" was just like Claire in that somewhere along the line she came in contact with the smoke and befriended an image of it. I think the monster claimed her and caused her to kill Claudia, but I am not convinced that SHE was the actual monster. I think if it were that simple, then John Locke wouldn't be part of the equation now--Claire would.
I think that the darkness (smokey) exists WITH the light and came bursting out of the light cave just as MIB was floating in because it was protecting the light from the evils of man. Later, Jacob found his brother's body later after the smoke had left and it wasn't any form other than his brother's dead body. I think that Smokey became the form of Jacob's brother because Jacob was there and that was a person that Jacob could relate to. Given the fact that the smoke can absorb the memories and personality of its victim, it appeared that it was actually Jacob's brother. I think Jacob's snide behavior on the beach right before the arrival of the Black Rock fits in perfectly with that.
As far as if Mother knew that the two boys held significance in the future, I don't know, but I have a couple of guesses. One would be that Smokey was influential in persuading Mother to take the boys because HE knew the future. The other would be that Smokey did the flashy thingy to Mother and she saw that her future was as a mother to a son. When Claudia arrived and gave birth, Mother was surprised to see two babies, but maybe that's because she only saw herself with one of the boys later--probably Jacob. I like the idea, though, that Smokey's flash ability with the screen shots of people's lives could be an explanation for how Eloise Hawking is seemingly in-the-know about parts of the future. It is possible that John was told to turn the wheel because he, then, exposed himself to the light of the island and made it possible for Smokey to become him.
I think the Mother could be Greek mythology Pandora. Pandoras' Box, or "pithos", when unleashed, would release toil, sickness, and hope. The "pithos" was used to hold wine, and ritually for burying dead.
Pandora was the first woman created by the gods out of clay. Zeus gave her the pithos as a wedding present and when she opened it, released "a swarm of evil spirits". When she closed the box, all that was left was hope.
Could the swarm of evil spirits be the smoke monster? And the light in the cave is the hope that is left after opening the box? I think the swarm of evil spirits was already there before MiB went in the cave and is now part of the swarm of souls who have tried to enter the cave before.
There have been a lot of references to "what's in the box?" - music boxes / caskets / senet game is a box. The white and black stones from the game seem to represent Jacob and MiB. They also arrived in a vessel (Claudia).
Re: Continuity error with age of skeletons.
I really think that you can't really date things on the island, since time is irrelevant on the island. We know time travels different on the island. Remember Hugo eating the crackers that were 15 years old? They were still good. So I don't think we can take Jack's guess at face value.
maybe the old skeletons were replaced by new skeletons...or its a strange island thing
she had a feather in her hair when she was with Claudia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27at
The writers have thrown us so many red herrings that attempting to predict how this show will wind up is futile.
Remember Walt? Remember being told how special he was? Remember how Walt was the central figure in what will ultimately total one third of the programmes finales?
What was that all about?
And Jacob's tapestries and rug sent me into crackpot theoryville, (a crowded place lately) even though any number of weaveblog worthy events may have occured on the Island in the intervening 2000 years or so.
Many LOST fans can't even come to an agreement concerning the nature of the events we have actually witnessed let alone what's yet to come.
When he said that he looked into the eye of the Island and what he saw was beautiful, Locke saw what Locke wanted to see,
I believe a lot of fans here and elsewhere do the exact same thing when they watch the show.
How did that work out for the old boxman?
Audio quality is FAR far better here. :) VBR obviously helped a LOT as well as the effects but it might exclude a bunch of VBR incompatible MP3 players.
Is it just me or does this one also cut off right after the part about how the struggle 'is what makes you who you are'?
Amazing episode, the one I've been waiting for. We got answers galore, some partial, some complete. Like the origins of Jacob and MIB, the Wheel backstory, Adam and Eve, the Rules, the source of the electromagnetism, the island's importance, and ofcourse, the origin of the smoke monster! I always thought that Smokey had something to with electromagnetism, the way he scans ppl with flashes, the sounds he makes and the lightning visible inside him and the way he can't go through a sonic/EM field barrier.
Very ballsy of the writers to leave MIB nameless! Makes me sympathize with him even more now. I'm so tempted to go over to MIB's side now. I always knew he wasn't evil and darkness that Jacob lied abt. And even if he is that now due to being the smoke monster, it was Jacob himself who made MIB that way. Yes, MIB did kill the "crazy mother" but she had it coming after what she did to the twins' real mother and after slaughtering an entire village of ppl.
I feel pity for MIB. He's been trapped on that island against his will for almost 2000 years. I highly doubt he's gonna spread evil into the world or anything like that when he leaves. He just wants to go home, across the sea. His methods may be diabolical but his goal is pure. My theory - Jacob doesn't want MIB to leave not because darkness will leave the island, but because the Light will leave! MIB's soul fused with the Light and has a part of it in Smokey.
I love how they took the scientific concept of Electromagnetism and told it in the context of the time period (the Source, the heart of the island and all that). EM is basically at the heart of everything. Every natural phenomena and force (except gravity) depends on it. Without EM there can't be Life or any sort of matter at all. Without EM, everything will "simple cease to exist". And it seems the Island is the origin point/nexus of all EM.
That is exactly what the Mother told us but in mystical terms: A source of Light that's a part of everyone, and "if the Light goes out here, it goes out everywhere".
I want to say something about The Force and Midi-chlorians as it came up again.
I find it strange that Darlton bring it up again and again like somehow it was an explanation for The Force.
It's not. There is no explanation given. That's like saying that electromagnetism is the sole explanation for the island. It really isn't.
Midi-chlorians ARE NOT THE FORCE.
They are life-forms that reside within the cells of living beings and allow them to communicate with the Force. The Force itself is still the energy field that surrounds and penetrates everyone. The MC's are the communication medium. The more MC's a person has the more they can listen to the Force and let it guide their actions.
Hence Luke is powerful in the Force because his father was. It's not about belief in the Force it's about genetics. Some get it some don't. Jedi monitor kids to see if they have it and don't have children themselves so as not to made it a special class of people but a chosen class by the Force itself.
I think Walt may have originally been thought of for greater purpose. However, I think his growth and our reaction to him standing over the pit really surprised the writers. So I then think they turned to Hurley. We don't see Hurley talking to dead people until Season 2 or 3, right? Mr. Echo or Dave if Dave is Libby's husband. MIB was special since he could see dead people, right?
Somehow the age of the skeletons does not bother me as much as the picture frames changing when Miles goes up the stairs and down the stairs. That just bugs me!
Anyone wanna bet Widmore's plan is that Desmond's whole purpose in being able to survive enormous electrmagnetic exposure is to be able to go into the cave of light and survive it (unlike anyone else who goes in there)?
I wonder if this might tie into my theory about MiB crossing over? I wonder if Widmore isn't trying to somehow find a way to get Desmond to be able to take MiB with him through the tunnel of light to the alternate timeline where he gets dropped off in Tunisia in one form or another (maybe back in his own body, now?)
Anyway--just struck me that maybe the whole purpose of having a high tolerance for electromagnetism has something to do with that tunnel of light and the 'amicable ending' that I keep theorizing about.
Good thought, Dan!! ++
crackpot...Widmore is the real candidate. Wacky mom's role on the island was to balance the good and evil, essentially Jacob and MIB as one. One image that stands out from 'across the sea' was her standing between the two boys...light and dark, each with blindfolds. Think of the blindfolded statue of Themis holding the scales of justice. Once Jacob was killed Widmore knew the scales were out of balance. Widmore is the replacement for Themis or who the egyptians called Maat. That is why in the flashsideways, widmore's office is adorned with pictures of balanced scales. I agree with dan that he is going to rein in the smoke with desmond somehow.
The Mother, "the Source" for the formative Jacob and MiB, is obviously corrupt. What is the message? What does one's life mean, if "the source" of that life is corrupt? Is this an opportunity for redemption from the sins of the
fathers (or mothers)? Is "The Source" of the island also corrupt? If so, I'm reminded of The Maltese Falcon.
Everyone who was after it thought it was gold. It turned out to be lead, and only "the stuff that Dreams are made of." It took a lot of gun-dead victims in TMF to finally come to that conclusion.
How did I end up posting here? I'm all of a sudden in the "X" timeline when I belong in the OTL! Where are Trollonymous and warningtraxx? IEEEEEE! These aren't the droids you're looking for. Go about your business. Move along.
PS. Curt, this is A VIOLATION. One that had better be fixed.
I can see that, for those with a strong pre-conception of what Lost should be, this was just wrong. But in my opinion Across the Sea was a beautiful left curve with great acting, music and cinematography. Mythology!
I completely agree with Nancy Drew's comment that smokey exists WITH the light and that the mother was not the actual monster. When mom says to Jacob, "Now you and I are the same" I think it points to her being a protector like him, not smokey. I also think that the original MIB is not the same as smokey but smokey has his memories as well as John Lock's.
Ditto - brilliant thought, Dan! The only thing I ask of the writers, though is to let Desmond end up with Penny and Charlie. Alas, I fear this is not in the cards.
The Game: Boy in black says, "One day you can make up your own game and then everyone will have to follow your rules." This foreshadows that Jacob will change some rules - like that people always have a choice. I'm really interested in where this might go. Also I think the game just washed ashore. The Mother could tell when Jacob tried to lie because he can't lie so she simply made him tell her the truth. Then she lied to MIB about it to hide the existence of an outside world.
"Every question will simply lead to another question." Best quote yet!
Finally, use of symbology seems ok to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbology_%28disambiguation%29
Jacob betrays his brother and cheats right off the bat. BiB tells Jacob he can play if he promises not to tell Mother. He is given a choice and the deal is explained to him clearly by BiB.
"So?, do you want to play Jacob?"
Yes he does says the toe-headed rube and almost immediately rats his bro out to Mom. This is probably why the Mother wants BiB to take over from her. She is the keeper of a great secret which must be maintained as such. Jacob can't lie while BiB can, therefore the BiB can keep a secret. That makes him the obvious choice.
I see no reason why the Mother couldn't have possessed the Smoke Monster's power prior to Jacob tossing his brother into the source. She is the protector, she is the security system and once she is killed, part of that responsibility (keeping the secret)is transferred to Jacob and the other part (physical protector) is eventually transferred to the MiB. It is Jacob who forces that obligation on his brother, just as his Mother forced his upon him.
It's possible that the Mother knew the MiB's curiosity would eventually lead him to such a fate, possibly not but the important thing is, the responsibility is split between the two brothers and they appear to be keeping one another in check or balanced so to speak.
As loathed as I am to make predictions now, I think it's possible that the winning candidate may end up possessing the obligations and powers of both brothers. Part of Dan's amicable ending.
Making the Smoke Monster a previously existing entity unto itself which has simply assumed the memories of the MiB would make this story's narrative completely worthless. The purpose of this episode wasn't just to explain the mythos, it was created to explain the brothers' motivations and sins. Introducing a seperate evil negates the MiB's whole back-story.
How does their mother know that falling into the light would be a fate worse than death? Probably because she has experienced that result herself and despite her warnings, knows that one of the boys will end up suffering the same fate for the sake of the Island.
MIB made smokey and heres why i believe this!
Ultimately my final say is that Jacob created Smokey. I say this because he put MIB in the light cave and Smokey came out. He took the form of himself, because his real body was dead. Anti Locke says that Jacob stole his body his soul. And in a way what happened in this episode is what Anti Locke described. Many things can be twisted to the truth for Anti Locke.
The other big reason why I believe this is because in the 1700’s Jacob and MIB were sitting on the beach, and re watching that scene I am more inclined to believe that it is Jacob and his dark brother. MIB wants revenge on his brother for killing him or doing something that lead to his death. Why else would he say “do you know how much I want to kill you.” So that is my final say, and as you know I am never wrong.
@Lindsey,
exactly. The Smoke Monster IS Jacob's brother, not some creature waiting to be released from the 'Source'. Why else would he require a 'loophole' to harm an all too human, Jacob?
Thank you, Lindsey! Precisely!
i knew one of these days Dan would realize that i have always been right
In case you haven't run across this interview yet: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/arts/television/16weblost.html?pagewanted=1
Lindsey, YOU'RE WRONG!
John Locke talked to Ben about the "elephant in the room" on Hydra Island. John spoke as if he was NOT the smoke when saying "you killed me".....as was also the case when he told other people that Ben had killed him. John Locke post-Ajira looks like John, talks like John, and has the same memories and personalities of John, but it truly is not him. I'm am still standing firm on the belief that the smoke existed LONG before No-Name's body went into that cave. Plus, the birth of the boys (according to Lostpedia) happens approximately 2,000 years before the Oceanic passengers crash to the island. That would be at about 4 AD. The Ancient Egyptian ruins and artifacts would have to date to at least 2,500 years before that--including the art on the wall that shows Anubis with the Smoke Monster.
Nancy youve given me a lot to think about, but im still not saying im wrong yet.
The MiB took on the form of John Locke and Alex in order to persuade Ben to kill Jacob for him.
He was creating a deception in order to manipulate Ben who had no idea Locke was in fact, Smokey. He even journied to the tunnels in order to be judged by Smokey. Why would he do that if he knew John was the monster?
The use of heiroglyphics and other Egyptian artifacts does not neccesarily mean that everything on the Island of Egyptian origin had to be created prior to the date in which 'Across The Sea" is set aprox: 30A.D.
Heiroglyphs were in use from 3000 B.C. to 300 A.D. Jacob could have drawn contemporary Egyptians to the Island to build Taweret(sp?) the temple, the tunnels, whatever.
Jacob himself is seen incorporating heiroglyphics into his tapestry's narrative as late as 1867 A.D. invoking the blessing of Aten.
The Smoke Monster may pre-date the events of 'ATS' but for the purposes of our story, it's strength, power and abilities are one with the character of the MIB.
If the Smoke Monster is some kind of genie possessing the memories and emotions of everyone it has ever consumed, then that would mean that Smokie would have an enormous number of possibly conflicting desires and motivations with origins the viewer couldn't possibly devine.
He seems a bit too focused for that.
For all intents and purposes,Smokey is Jacob's brother.
The only variation I can forsee (and it would be entirely arbitrary if introduced) would be related to the length of time the MiB has taken on a single form, that of John Locke. If Locke's mind is sublimated by the MiB and either time or some phenomenon allows it to begin expressing itself then we are heading into the cliched realm of cheap schizophrenic plot devices and that quite frankly, would suck.
I appreciate your enthusiasm in trying to convince those opposed to the MIB is Smokey camp, but the points you brought up really have no bearing on the argument. The point about John and Ben wasn't about the deception and manipulation of Ben. It was about the fact that John/Smokey COULD and DID play the part of John Locke without blinking an eye. It's THIS that parallels the way MIB acted toward Jacob on the beach just before the Black Rock showed up.
As for the day and age of the hieroglyphs......the facts are correct, but the Senet game was already on the island.
that is true that the senet game as already on the island or washed up on shore, but then again we never saw the heiroglyphics in this episode at all...argh i am confusing even my self
I am open to the idea that the monster has existed all along and I have already stated why that would be disappointing from a story telling aspect but nothing (or should I say NOTHING)you have written supports your argument ND.
Please explain why a seperate pre-existing entity would need to find a proxy to kill Jacob. Remember, the loophole?
Please enlighten me.
There are lots of reasons why the smoke had to find a loophole. Mother was saying chants--or spells, as some have speculated--and may have given Jacob that "circle of protection"-type advantage over the monster. He also drank the wine and officially became the next island protector. That could be a reason why the smoke couldn't kill him.
We've also seen where John/Smokey has been told that he can't kill the candidates. Jacob could very well have been considered a candidate and that could be the reason why. How many times have we noticed situations manipulated to turn one Oceanic survivor against another? I think this is the case with how Smokey has to eliminate people on the island when he can't kill them.
I'm wondering now if "Wallace" is supposed to be Jacob and his brother. Of course, if it's not crossed off, then it would almost have to be Jacob if it turns out to be associated to them.
Jacob could be a candidate?
Jacob was the incumbent.
And Wallace is crossed out in the Lighthouse.
You are welcome to your theory but your feelings and guesses do not constitute an argument no matter whether you capitalize the letters or not. You have Anubis on the brain. The MiB said he spent 30 years searching the Island for the source but couldn't find it. Nor did he find any statues, any temples or any lighthouses or at least if he had, he might have mentioned them.
If the writers abandon the narrative and have some character urging the Smoke monster to leave the form of John Locke in an excorcist stylee, I will be putting my LOST DVDs on E-Bay.
Nice post. thanks for the shared with us. Dyed Fabric
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