Monday, May 17, 2010

Across the Sea

Black Rock LOST Podcast: Season 6 episode 15 of ABC's TV show, LOST. Curt, Dan, Nancy Drew, Lost Lindsey along with James. Collectively we take a second look at a very polarizing episode. How deep do we read into it or is just a parable?


Narrative update.... The island is the *source* and it need to be protected from greedy men. But then our story is that some people can rise above that.

Pleasant Software - Ubercaster


eddy said...

hey guys, i enjoyed the bonus material at the end of the last podcast. i enjoy the after show banter. not quite a ramble cast tho.

i agree that the ep was polarising. after the initial high of seeing an origin story i was left with the fact that i had many new questions and may need to look at the bigger picture instead.

i guess that Jacob had a few things that he had going at the same time. He eventually was seeking out a replacement.

he also was trying to prove MIB and ultimately his Mother wrong, who both shared the same view that mankind was corrupted.

at the same time he had to keep smoky imprisoned on the island.

i still cannot equate the two end game scenarios. smoky leaving the island will make everything "cease to be" and if men come to TRY to take the light it will go out etc. are the two mutually exclusive. is then the plan of widmore to take the Source and MIB leaving the island?

MIB said he was a man once and Jacob took his body. we can surmise as much from the episode. but we also know that smoky retains the memories and possibly some residual personlity traits of the body/form it is choosing to be. smoky also said that he also loved once. who is that now? was he speaking of mother? bcos all we see is him and some men digging wells etc in his 30yrs with them. i thought that he may have had someone off island, but we all know that the ep really blew most peoples theories outta the water.

now to listen to the sunday night show.

eddy said...

another thought - if we can say that smoky was born of water, why is water a nemesis? like kryptonite for superman then?

Kunal said...

My theory is that MIB can't be allowed to leave not because the Darkness will escape but that the Light itself will escape from the Island. And that's why Jacob has to keep him trapped there against his will. MIB's soul fused with the Light (and water) and became Smokey. Thus he may have a part of the Light inside him now.

Kunal said...

Firstly, I want to say that I haven't listened to the Sunday podcast yet so if some of this was already brought up, pardon me.

The Rules weren't explained in a scientific way, but they were cleared up a bit. It seems the island's guardian has the power to make or enforce the Rules. Boy in Black did say to Jacob: "One day you can make up your own game and everyone else will have to follow your Rules. Flash to current day and in ep4, boy-Jacob's vision/apparition told MIB-Locke "You know the Rules. You can't kill him" referring to Sawyer.

Gr8 parallels with Claire, Rousseau and Claudia - getting marooned on the Island while heavily pregnant and giving birth soon after. Also, it was cool to finally see the crazy mother that MIB-Locke told Kate abt. He said she caused him to have permanent issues and I don't doubt it. Makes sense why in S4, MIB-Christian manipulated events to get Aaron away from soon-to-be-crazy Claire and off the island. MIB is very protective of Claire and Aaron, only for sentimental reasons I guess.

Interesting how Boy in Black could see dead-Claudia but jacob couldn't. Does MIB have the same gift as Hurley? I doubt it. I think the island CHOSE to give that vision/apparition to MIB alone. By now, it's pretty much confirmed that the Island has some kind of sentience/intelligence and maybe even a will of its own.

This was 23 AD Roman times (see Claudia's dress and them speaking Latin) and there was no Statue, Temple or any heiroglyphs anywhere, So guess the last remnants of the Egyptians came and built all that stuff soon after.

Very intriguing how the Mother and MIB shared the same beliefs abt humanity and yet they were estranged. Jacob though disagreed with her and yet was loyal. I think the main thing Jacob and MIB disagree abt is the Island's importance and whether it needs protecting or not. MIB just wants to go home.

I'm now pretty excited abt the Alternate timeline's resolution cause we saw that the Island was at the bottom of the sea! Does that mean that the Light has gone out in the Alt? If so, why is everything (seemingly) fine? Is MIB right and the Island isn't really important at all? Is the Alt actually the original timeline and the Island timeline the alternate one? The Island and all that has happened on it does seem like an aberration.

Nancy Drew said...

True that we didn't see hieroglyphs or the statue, but we weren't really shown much of the island, either.

I have had no problem with this show proving me wrong in the past and won't if it does so in the next week, but for now, IMO, the evidence points to the smoke monster being present on the island prior to No-Name going into the light source.

Mairuzu said...

Sixth post! :P heheh

You're wrong, Nancy Drew! :) ...with apologies to Lyndsey for taking her line.

JayJay said...

The episode was supposed to take place in the year 23A.D (The numbers) The finale will air on the 23rd (the numbers). This is a clue that Jack (#23) is important.

Another thing, the offical lost podcast says that it is only important that they show back stories that directly influence how oceanic 815 got to the island. So therefore, questions that don't influence the losties coming to the island don't matter.

Trollonymous said...

Since the debate has moved to this forum I'll repost in here,

ND stated that Smokey needed a loophole to kill Jacob because he is a candidate. Please feel free to clarify that if I'm misrepresenting your view ND but,

Jacob could be a candidate?

Jacob was the incumbent.

And Wallace is crossed out in the Lighthouse.

You are welcome to your theory but your feelings and guesses do not constitute an argument no matter whether you capitalize the letters or not. You have Anubis on the brain. The MiB said he spent 30 years searching the Island for the source but couldn't find it. Nor did he find any statues, any temples or any lighthouses or at least if he had, he might have mentioned them.

If the writers abandon the narrative and have some character urging the Smoke monster to leave the form of John Locke in an excorcist stylee, I will be putting my LOST DVDs on E-Bay.

JayJay said...

There seems to be some kind of inconsistancy with the light that we have seen. I believe we have seen it before when Ben turned the wheel and also it's the source of almost limitless energy that Piere Chang mention when excavating under the Orchid station. Chang mentioned that if they ever drilled into the chamber (which seemed to be preventing it from ever being breached) that "God Help us all". It appeared that the island was preventing it from ever being breached, but it seemed that MIB was able to pry a rock effortlessly from the wall to expose the chamber.

Am I correct or have I seem something wrong?

Kunal said...

Well, you know, MIB's "special" - Mother said so lol.

Actually I'm not sure abt the technicalities of "harnessing the limitless energy" and all that. What I got from that was that we now know for sure why the Dharma Initiative was purged. They came too close to the Source. They knew that they were breaching the Truce by digging around searching for EM. That's why they disguised the Orchid as a "botanical research station" and why the Swan construction was supposed to be a top-secret affair.

And like Ben said, it wasn't his decision, so it must've been Jacob's decision to wipe out the DI. Just like the previous guardian, Mother, wiped out that village of over-curious people.

JayJay said...

I have to wonder about about the rules and if they are truly just myth & legends, or is it controlled by a higher power. I fail to see how a person can create a rule and how it can hold true. Does it embeds in ones mind that they won't try to break the rules.

Let me give you an example you might be able to relate. In the bible, the creation story where we have Adam and Eve in the garden. God gave man & woman two commandments. 1 Multiply and replenish the earth 2. Do not partake of the tree of good and evil. Here's where I want to make the argument about the rules. The consequence of breaking rule no.2 is that they will surely die. Now this statement in itself is enough to deter anyone from ever going near the tree at all. Soon after the temptation of the devil, Eve eventually partook of the fruit. She was the first to ever test the validity of the rule. Did she surely die? well that's debatable, she eventuatly died, but that's because as a result she experienced mortality and also being banished from the garden of eden, but the consequence of breaking the rule reads, as if you would die immediately.

Back to LOST, the foster mom says to both the boys that if this light in the cave was to ever go out, then it would basically mean the end. Now, is anyone going to test the validity of this statement, or does one take it at face value? MIB said to Sawyer that the island is just an island, and it doesn't need saving. Also just like in the hatch Jack argued with Locke about pushing the button. He said "It's just a damn computer, it doesn't need to be pressed". Now this takes me to what Kelvin Inman said to Desmond about the rules of the button. If the button is not pushed in 108mins then it would mean the end of the world. We see that because Locke destroyed the computer and they couldn't press the button, would this have ended the world? No one will ever know what would happen. And did Dharma create that rule? Who would have knew that if the accumulation of electromagnetic energy could be large enough to destroy the world. I could see it destroying the island, but not the world.

Something that has been recurring this season is that fact that if Smokey was able to leave the island, that all things would cease to exist? Why do we take this at face value? Do we believe this will be the case? Just like in the garden of eden analogy it eventually happened, but did not happen straight away. How can one justify that because someone has broken the rules, that the consequence is going to happen. Even Eloise said to Ben that if we don't have all the oceanic 6 back on the plane, then God help us. We know that didn't happen, because Aaron didn't go back. I took it as a threat.

JayJay said...

It just so happened that woman (without a name) raised the children, that being raised from birth they would easily coerced or manipulated into believing anything. Jacob believed there was nothing beyong the sea, because that's what the foster mom told them since they were young,
and they believe it. It only took a child with a free spirit, one that was curious and that was able to question, the rules, that was able to disprove the things he was being taught by his mom, and ended up rebelling. It shows that MIB was the only one of them who ended up using his free will to decide, where Jacob believed everything.

A religious rules that most christians believe is that there is heaven and hell. If you're bad you go to hell, if you're good you go to heaven. Much emphasis is put on what religion one follows, and some of the followers believe that the "OTHERS" (religions) are cults and follow false beliefs and are brainwashed. But happens in the after-life to the Atheist that doesn't believe in a God but does good all his life by helping fellow men? Is it justice that he spend eternity in hell? What about a man who has done evil, but is truly repentant when he dies? I'm truly of the belief that it's the sum of the goodness that you do that determines where you go. As it will be a weighing of the heart. I only know of one religion in the world (could be more) that takes the rules seriously, in Islam the rules are set in concrete, any broken law that is punishable by death is actually taken the whole way, and the trangressor is put to death.

I guess there are things as parents we could relate to also about rules for our children, as we tell our children about being good or else Santa won't bring any presents (sound like a threat). I guess children learn how to test this. But we still shower them with gifts at Christmas because we love them. But if we were to weigh the troubled times and anguish they showed, they probably wouldn't be deserving of presents from Santa. I guess there are lots of other examples you could bring up about applying rules, which are myths and legends to children, and eventually children find out for themselves.

Are the rules myths or legends. Are they prevented from killing each other, or they just believe it so much, they won't try. I think of the scripture from Proverb chapter 23 verse 7, which says "For as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he". This ties so much into the island being a magic box, what ever you think, desire or believe, then it will manifest. What do you guys think?

Kunal said...

"For as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he". This ties so much into the island being a magic box, what ever you think, desire or believe, then it will manifest.

-Actually, those two don't tie together whatsoever, IMO. The Bible line is actually saying that we can be the person we wish to be and we shouldn't be bound by rules, customs and castes. I don't know the context of that line, but this is the way I read it.

About the Swan computer, I think it definitely was important to keep the energy corked in. A massive Electromagnetic discharge will simply wipe out the planet's Ozone layer which would soon lead to the end of all life on earth.

Mairuzu said...

Oh hey.. look at that... today's woot (only today, 5/17/2010):

Mairuzu said...

Here's the permanent link, in case you're looking at this after 5/17/2010:

Is it appropriate that it's a red shirt? :)

Also, apparently, the crown in the logo is a reference to the British "Keep Calm and Carry On" World War II poster. ( Not sure I get it.. but eh, there it is!

Trollonymous said...

@JJ (Abrams?)

Lost Lindsey said...

Ok thought of something else....what about how Anti Locke talked about his crazy mother which was crazy Allison...doesnt that prove my point that MIB was turned into smokey?

Just a note even I am not entirely sure on this theory, im polarized myself on this issue as is the rest of the community.

Tollonymous said...

Try to think of the smoke manifestation as an atribute or ability of Jacob's brother rather than human manifestations such as MiB or Locke or Christian being the power of some creature we know nothing about.

The reason I believe this is just as Curt said at the beginning of the podcast, all we have is the narrative and no evidence points to Smokey being an independent character.

If this was the case, it would be very very shabby,hacknied writing.

If you are having trouble with the timeframe then don't take my word for it, research for yourself the timescale concerning the use of heiroglyphics. Also, look up Jacob's tapestry on Lostpedia to see more heiroglyphics incorporated into Jacob's work shown in "The Incident". That takes place immediately before we see the MiB for the first time as they watch the Black Rock sail in together. That is dated 1867 in "Ab Aeterno". My point is if Jacob is still using them in tapestries as late as the arrival of Richard, then their appearance in the temple as well as the relief showing a smoke monster and Anubis is not evidence supporting the existence of a seperate Smoke Monster prior to the events of "Across The Sea".

Had they shown the temple to exist during the brothers' youth, that would change everything, but until we are shown a contemporaneous existence of such a nature, there is no evidence.


Ryan said...

Doctor Who started in 1963!


Talk about confusing time lines!

Mairuzu said...

1963, you're right. I stand corrected! I can't believe I screwed that up, considering the clothes that Susan and the two teachers were wearing--they were very 60's.

The Lost Name said...

my only hope is that they'll give a name to jacob's brother. that's all i have to say.

warningtrax said...

@ Robert R.
Although a brilliant metaphor, I find myself far too immature to comment. Nice job, Robert.

@ The Black Rock Crew, Robert R., JayJay, Eddy, Trollonymous, Ryan, et. al.
Thanks to all of you. I sincerely hope we all get what we're looking for. Buckle up and enjoy the ride. I look forward to the post mortem fat being chewed.