Wednesday, May 19, 2010

What They Died For - Community Call

Black Rock LOST Podcast: Season 6 episode 16 of ABC's TV show, LOST. Curt, Dan, Nancy Drew, Lost Lindsey and our friends from the Smoke Hatch along with James. We get answers! ...or did we?


Everything happens for a reason, and that reason is to protect the island!?


JayJay said...

previously on... Survivor. The remaining tribe mates voluntarily give up their position to win the coverted status of sole survivor. In their final tribal council the jury heard the verdict and anointed Jack the winner. Next episode will include the 2 and a half hour survivor reunion show.

eddy said...

reposted from BR
first things first - Lindsey - you're right
for smoky anyways
also Lindsey - did you like the timeline info from the AT - Locke in Jack's office - saying that he threw his card away the next day and then a FEW days later he gets hit by a car

some thoughts

like all the other "side" stories/characters, which were given time as if they were important, they were not our Losties, and ultimately its their stories we care about. case in point:
Ilana - tasked with looking after the Losties - dead!
Widmore - Jacob came to him personally with the job of taking down smoky and if not have a Failsafe in Desmond - dead!
Richard - Jacob told Ilana that Richard would know what to do - dead??? probably not. that story line was another one that fizzled for me. his plan to blow up the plane was already null and void because it was one of the first things widmore did (rigging the plane) and then blowing up the plane Plan B - went nowhere - writing techniques to bring people to the secret closet - which brought a very telling comment from Ben "it was where i was told i could summon the monster, that's before i realised it was the one summoning me" The Long Con by smokie. may need to chew on that more.

Ben - you sneaky bastard! had to say it.

eddy said...

On the nature of the Candidates
after this ep it really does seem that the island protector is imbued with certain powers, and making Rules is one of them. the picking of the candidates seemed just according to Jacob's rules and not some Universal Force/Source thingy. it seemed rather arbitrary, but maybe Jacob could have certain foresight/insight. I'm thinking he built the Lighthouse to find the people that he was interested in - flawed people who would need the island, who would protect it.
And these last 2000 yrs have been also Jacob's story arc, dealing with the broken relationships in his past, his own damage. He said he never had a choice, but his philosophy was to not force it on someone, even to the point of Non Interference. His actions lead directly to the deaths of the people on his wall.

On the nature of pregnancy
it seems like another one of Jacob's rules. he said he crossed Kate's name off the wall because she became a mother. probably why Littleton was crossed off too. Was this just an arbitrary Rule because of some pain left with his relationship with his mother. Guilt resulting from not siding with his birth mother and going with her murderer?
He also was responsible for deaths of pregnant women i guess, since we can surmise that he made it that babies cannot be born on the island. am i right there?

As i theorised in last weeks ep, the ritual is more ceremony than actual objects. he used river water and a steel camping mug. maybe it all needs the incantation and the faith of the recipient.

On the nature of the Source
here's my thinking. MIB is now fused with the Source or at least a part of it. maybe the "death" part that Mother mentioned. if i can use an analogy, smoky is now like the Symbiote which fused with Spiderman and then Eddie Brock to become Venom. it found a host that was dark and thats what it finally became. not saying its the same but its a way to see smoky. as Mother said, men will want to take it and if so it may go out. smoky now is part of the Source and to "destroy" it, it must come back to the Source. a little like the One Ring from LOTR. if it does leave the island, it could be catastrophic, like men coming to take a part of the Source but a thousand times worse. the Source is the spark of life in all humanity, and thats how i now reconcile the fact that all things will "cease to be" and "the light will go out everywhere"

and thanks for asking/answering some more fans questions Hurley-style. ben ask why smokie just dont change into smoke instead of walking :)

goldbeadz said...

I still think Ben will be redeemed. Why did he ask Miles for the walkie talkie? And I wish Desmond had better sunglasses!

Robert R said...

“It’s coq au vin night!” – Alex Rousseau

I haven’t come up with a sprawling, overriding theme for my observations of this episode, except that it does what is necessary at this point: It puts all the pieces on the board, so that the endgame can proceed in the finale. This is achieved artfully, and with emotions that resonate. A very nice episode. I’ll give it an 8.5. Heck, since “The Constant” is my favorite LOST episode ever, being a 10, I’ll go ahead and give it a 9.

Obviously, the mystery of the Sideways timeline is integral to the resolution of the series, as it won’t be revealed until the finale. All I can say is it’s about time.

Desmond looks like he’s going to pancake Locke again, then ends up pummeling Ben instead. Loved it.

Island Ben seems to take the express lane to the Dark Side. 1st stop, Alex’ grave, then the Charles reunion. By the time smokey shows up, he’s ready to buy a seat and popcorn (“Would you like some lemonade?”) to see the show. I see Ben in the Han (Napoleon?) Solo role. (“C’mon kid, let’s blow this thing and get outta here.”) He has to know that MiB’s offer to “run the island” is hollow, especially since MiB admits his plan to use Desmond to destroy the island. I hope if he “broke a rule” by killing Widmore, that Ben gets away with it.

Desmond is a joy to watch. The dude knows everything. I will try to be more like him.

Sawyer calls MiB “fLocke”! A shout out to us “fans” from the writer’s room!

I feel very vindicated to see that the outcome of the series comes down to Jack’s choice. Too many people tend to lose focus, and spend a lot of time, brain cycles and yakking down errant rabbit holes. There’s a lesson here: Keep your eye on the (eye)ball.

Finally, we learn that wine is unnecessary for the “Now you and I are the same” ceremony. I wonder if Jacob can walk on water as well?

I’m a little bit butt-hurt right now with Curt, so I’m not sure if I’m going to continue posting here. Depending on how things go, maybe I’ll see some or all of you on the other side. Namaste, and don’t take any wooden ankhs.

warningtrax said...

I found it interesting that while at Dharmaville, MIB secures the services of Ben by again promising rule of the island-- the same island he later tells Ben he will attempt to destroy with the assistance of Desmond. Huh? (just got scooped by Robert R.)

@ goldbeadz: Ben taking the walkies is very intriguing. Furthermore, is it possible that Ben had Widmore pegged correctly all along? Did Ben simply drop dime on what he considered a threat to the island, himself and the remaining losties? (not to mention a little revenge mixed in for good measure) Has Ben gained the trust of smokie in a last ditch effort to save the island, and himself, knowing full well that Widmore was powerless to stop smokie?

I think this is going to get real fun once ATL Locke wiggles his toes and ATL Claire goes into labor. I can’t shake the feeling that each ATL lostie has a single, specific task to perform in the MTL (sometime between the crash and what we see as the present) that leads to this story’s resolution. Of course, this will come at a price....and they only have two and a half hours (our time) to do it!

Even though Jack has signed on as the new island protector, I don’t think he’ll have the job for long. “It only ends once.” Likely

warningtrax said...


Likely, we’ll witness that ending.

Bob said...

Loved the hilarious long bits on Doc Jensen with Jacob and MIB - Totally Lost

Bob said...

oh and on Totally Lost they say that Jacob and Fake-Mom were to originally use water there also not wine.

warningtrax said...

I wonder what the playlist is for the concert. Will Daniel kick it off with “Good Vibrations”? You just know the encore will be “You All Everybody”. I also wonder if ATL Daniel had a recollection of MTL Charlie, which is why he insisted on performing with Drive Shaft, and what Charles considered an odd musical mixture.

Bob said...

Yes , Ben visiting MIB in the cabin telling him to summon Smokey perhaps?

I like Sgt Draino calling MIB - Adam and Mother - Eve as we had those names from the beginning so they didn't need to give them another name now?

Ryan said...

I'm pulling out my old theory that the alt-verse people will come to the island. Not the one in their world but they will crossover to the regular timeline.

Since all the people that were killed still exist in another reality they are still tethered to the world and can't move on. If Des does go into the light then the other Des will receive some of that power and will pull all the LA X Losties with him to the island where they will "become" their other selves.

So everyone brought together by Des will be alive again on the island Locke as well.

I'll also throw in that Locke will kill Smokey and then everyone but a few will get on the plane and leave. I don't think Frank is dead anymore than Richard is. Locke becomes the new Smokey but that's OKhe doesn't want to leave and the final is Jack and Locke on the beach. They are now "brothers" both protecting the island.

Hope for Finale said...

I knew they'd do a 3 hour finale and leave us hanging after this episode, so Sunday we pick up right where we left off.. but i must say, i was slightly frustrated because it wasn't that great. for the first time in 6 seasons Lost has been predictable and slightly boring...

warningtrax said...

@ Ryan

I, too, believe that Locke will kill MIB-- Naomi-style.

Patrick said...

I'm convinced that the nightmares Widmore discussed in season 4 are the direct result of meeting with Jacob. Jacob came to Widmore and told him that he inadvertently helped MiB, which could lead to him escaping the island. I have a feeling Jacob told Widmore exactly what the results of an unchained MiB would be, hence the nightmares

Ryan said...

@ warningtrax

There just has to be a last supercool Locke moment doesn't there?

I mean don't you just want Locke to come back to the island ram a knife through MIB's gut and then say some awesome one-liner goodbye to him?

I sure do.

Lost Lindsey said...

I'm Right!!! yipee. I was wrong though on the whole cave thing, I thought the Cave was MIB and the light house was Jacob, guess Jacob is just anal retentive

Bens already been redeemed once can he be redeemed again?

Richard is not Dead until we see him dead, though i did love that he buried Alex, very sweet.

Also if you have not watched Totally Lost this week, watch it on it is fricken hillarious

Trollonymous said...

A lot of people seem to be giving up on a show they claim to love so they can say I told you so on Monday morning.

Claire's unknown status aside, I enjoyed the episode. They have set the stage for the final act and several factors are either completely eliminated or put into play. From the introduction of Ben's C4 to Smokey demonstrating that the rifle, knife and knapsack are not part of him, (unlike his bullet-proof clothing), to Miles' and Desmond's escapes,to Jack assuming his destiny and many points in between, not least, the alt timeline, most of the players are ready to perform and if we didn't see some, well how much can you pack into 42 minutes while doing your best to re-iterate the stakes involved?

(how's that for a run-on sentence?)

It wasn't perfect, there are some plotholes and devices which are complete B.S. The concept of "claiming" is obviously a load of nonsense introduced by the writers to transport characters to locations they have no business being in or to have them make bizzare action choices neccesary to move the story along.

I think the Island is done with 'claiming'.

I liked Jacob's 'confession'. He made a mistake, he created a monster. He didn't release the monster, he created it when he dispatched his brother to a fate worse than death. He's so hard on himself, it's been 2000 years, why doesn't he just let go?
Jacob's such a stubborn bugger, isn't he? Sad really.

I hate trying to predict how this show will go but they are pretty big on fore-shadowing.
Remember when Jacob used the wine bottle and cork as a metaphor in order to explain things to Richard?
The MiB continued that metaphor for the audience when he released the wine(Evil) being trapped by the cork(Island) by destroying the jug (World).

Ben might just pull the old C4 knapsack switcheroo on the MiB. Can he be hurt by explosives? The shelling on the beach didn't bother him but a stick of exploding dynamite certainly scrambled him when he tried to drag the real Locke down a hole a few seasons ago.

We'll see.

warningtrax said...

@ Trollonymous

I think the writers took this metaphor (and plot) for a test drive in Season 2.

- Wine, Evil, Electromagnetism
- Cork, Island, Pushing the Button at the Swan
- Destroy the Jug, Destroy the World, DON’T Push the Button

Which may lead us to:

- Eliminate the Wine, Eliminate the Evil, Release the EM with Failsafe Key

warningtrax said...

Although Miles has been marginally helpful to the Losties and has provided some insight for us viewers, I’m still waiting for his ultimate task; the one dead body he comes across whose information proves critical to the story’s resolution. Miles coming across Alex’s body served to punctuate a change in Ben’s character and to remind us of Miles’ ability. We’ll see him use this ability one more time.

The next time Miles goes wonky, it’ll be a doosie.

warningtrax said...

Upon watching the episode again, I picked up that Ben gave a walkie to Richard. I expect Ben’s walkie to crackle to life early on. More than ever, I believe Ben will be successful where Sawyer failed: the con of Smokie. After all, Ben is better at it.

eddy said...

according to smokie, Sawyer is the best liar he has ever met.

warningtrax said...

@ Eddy

Yes, I recall that line. Maybe Sawyer being duped by Ben (Hydra Island) trumps that statement.

I just hate to believe that one of the most powerful scenes this season, a broken Ben baring his troubled soul to Illana, will be negated. Ben is living with the pain of two terrible mistakes: putting the island in front of his daughter and being duped into killing Jacob. He collected his revenge against the first mistake and I doubt he’ll make the second mistake again. Still, like Jack, I’ve been wrong many more times than right.

Trollonymous said...

@ Warning Trax,

I agree @ 8:30am
I agree @ 8:42am
I agree @ 8:56 am and
I agree @ 10:10 am

which no doubt means that we are both wrong.

I believe Bob has mentioned the Geronimo Jack's Beard podcast released by Jorge Garcia and his girlfriend.
I don't know if anyone else has given it a shot but it gives an insider's perspective on the show, as much as one can be an 'insider' if not part of the writing team.

On the most recent edition they brought up some points from the script (as they usually do) and revealed some important bits of direction.

To begin,the first scene of 'What They Died For" takes place directly after Locke tells Claire that he's going to finish what he started. Aparently he tells Claire that she is going to have to kill everyone of the candidates for him.
Claire refuses to do this but what happens next is a bit fuzzy. They discuss Locke tossing her away with ease but it isn't clear if they mean right there and then or if they are referring to his intervention during Claire's attack on Kate. Anyways, if this was shot, it was either left out for time, or deleted for plot change. It's kind of a big deal since we don't know what happened to her. If her end wasn't shown on the episode but is revealed in a script (which is of course, subject to change)Claire now becomes a wild card along with Lapidus and Richard. Events in the Alt seem to be affecting events in the main as much as the other way around.
They also brought up the 'rules'.
They stated clearly that one of the rules stipulated that the MiB had to keep all of the promises he has made. Did I miss this being stated on the show or is this actual direction given to the actors for the purposes of their craft?

Henry Ian Cusick is involved in the latest podcast and has some interesting things to say.
Keeping in mind that the audience should (and in this case does)always know a little bit more than certain protagonists, when Desmond tells the MiB that his name is John Locke, his character believes this is indeed the John Locke he knows. As it dawns on him that this isn't Locke he hopes that what there is of his old friend that remains will struggle to come out of the MiB. He then admits that his character's hopes are dashed as he knows there is no John Locke in the MiB. Dead is dead.

Thank God for that. I realise the actor needs something to work with but so does the audience and such a writing choice would have been pathetic.

They also speak of dialogue for Locke where he says to someone,"if I didn't have to obey the rules do you think I'd still be on this Island?" Now this may not have been shot, or I may not have been listening closely enough, but does this ring a bell with anyone? I can't remember hearing him say such a thing. I know about his coveration with Sawyer regarding flying across to the Hydra, but that seemed more like an explanation of his physical limitations rather than his obligations.

Lastly, Can Ben take a kicking or what? Uncle Rico certainly prepared young Ben for the trials of his later life. "Do you think I can throw this football over the Island's volcano?"

Just say yes Ben.

Miguel said...

What are the perks of being the protector of the island? You can live forever but anyone can kill you except for smokey. Jack as the candidate can be killed by Ben or anyone else so his job might not last that long. When Jack took the job he didn't seem like he was really convinced that he wanted it, he just wants to kill Flock. I say this because he asks how long does he have to do it for. I predict that Jack will in the end give the job to Ben. I know it seems like Ben is turning evil again but I believe its in his interest to get rid of smokey and finally have what he loves most, the Island. You don't have to be a candidate to get the job since they are just names on the wall. Ben's motives have always seemed evil but its always been in the interest of protecting the island. Ben deserves to be the new Jacob.

Miguel said...

LOL on Uncle Rico. That football throwing scene always runs through my head when I see Ben's dad.

Robert R said...

@Troll - Great post, and LOL at the Uncle Rico jokes!

Nancy Drew said...

Ok, let's pretend for a moment that I am finally persuaded into believing that Jacob DID create the monster by pushing his brother into the light.......

Desmond, we assume, has passed Widmore's test and seems to be the last resort, but for what? I have a theory..........

What if the smoke monster is actually the consciousness of "Adam"? The electromagnetism has already been shown as having the properties of separating the conciousness of person from their body and allowing it travel on it's own (The Constant). The smoke monster also has the ability to retain memory, play on peoples' imaginations, and see things through a "mind's eye". The fact that it can shape shift could be attributed to it being able to "imagine" the person it chooses to look like based on the memories of person on the island, or, in the cases of Christian and Yemi, it saw what they looked like (even though they were dead) and used that image.

Now, as for Desmond, we know that his consciousnes has been tested time and time again, and he was able to withstand his experiences because of having a constant, so my guess is that his consciousness will be able to withstand the source inside the cave, too. I'm betting that he will end up having to go inside the source and when he does, he'll find ...............

a microwaved hot pocket from the future.....dun dun dun.......


Ok, all but that last part are what I think is going to happen.

Trollonymous said...

"What if the smoke monster is actually the consciousness of "Adam"?"

What do you think we've been saying for God only knows how many posts?

Jacob's brother is the Smoke when he needs to be a threatening bad-ass and the shape of "whomever the situation suits" when he needs to interact and communicate with people. It doesn't matter what he looks like, he is the same individual that went for the log-ride into the source.

I don't care how he takes on the form that he does, it's not a question I need answered because I choose to suspend my disbelief and accept that he has incredible abilities.
It's his character that matters. What does he want? What motivates his actions? If you split him into MiB, Christian, Yemi, whoever, then we as the audience don't have a clue why he does the things he does. It doesn't make him complex, it makes him confusing. He has scanned peoples' memories and manipulated them when he could. Especially Jack, Ben and Mr Eko.
As Yemi, he even says to Eko before he kills him, "you speak to me as though I am your brother." Precisely because, he is not Yemi. Just as he was not Christian and is not John Locke.

It's time to let go.

Trollonymous said...

This is superb by the way.

Nancy Drew said...

Hmmm, not sure I see it posted anywhere that the smoke is his consciousness, Trolly. And it's just a thought, so don't get your undies in a bunch.

And really? You consider that "superb"? I think you need to get out more :)

Trollonymous said...

Yes Nancy,I do think it's superb.

I like the juxtaposition of hip hop beats with various pieces of Giacchino's LOST score, punctuated by a sample of Jack's famous,"we've got to go back" speech. The execution of the actual rapping isn't perfect but it's lyrically clever and I agree with it's sentiment.

It's just a matter of taste Nancy, you don't have to like it and you don't have to insult me because I do.

Writing, "What if the smoke monster is actually the consciousness of "Adam"?" as if you just came up with the concept is such a weak capitulation, it just leaves me shaking my head.
You should have just stuck to your guns, for all you know, you may have actually been right.

After reading that,I'm sure that either way, you'll claim you were.

Nancy Drew said...

And then, after the "either way" it goes, you'll claim that you were right about how I acted. See? This prediction business is fun! :)

Trollonymous said...

I don't care if I'm right or wrong as long as the character's actions remain organic and consistant, allowing for growth.

If I am wrong, I hope it's because they've blown us away. Who doesn't want the finale to succeed?

What kind of fan would want the show to fail?

Nancy Drew said...

I'm in agreement with you there. It's the reason I hold this show to such high standards. They created this monster...........and we're just hoping it doesn't turn out to be a puff of smoke. I, for one, need it to be something significant to tie into the story.

Robert R said...

@ ND and Troll, I don't think I understand what you two are arguing about. To me, you both seem to be saying that Smokey is the disincorporated persona of MiB. It's not like the dullard argument that Jacob "freed" something from the cave that was already down there, right? Or am I missing someone's point?

Trollonymous said...


who on earth would still cling to that cliched idea. If that were the case it would completely negate the entire 40 minutes preceding the scene. Character motivation? What the hell is that?

I'm just starting to think that Nancy may have taken her user name and avatar not from the famous sleuth but from the cocktail, the Nancy Drew;

1 part White Rum
2 parts Diet Ginger Ale
a splash of lime

aka a Hardy Boy if served to a man.

bottoms up!

Trollonymous Donaghy said...

Oh and credit where credit's due,

that joke is from 30 Rock.

I wouldn't want to pretend I just came up with that.

Miguel said...

Are Mom and Dad going to get a divorce?

Nancy Drew said...

Well, for the record, I'm still on that "dullard" line of thinking. And I never drink Rum......But I do like movies, great TV shows like Lost, and long walks on the beach.


@Miguel, Sometimes divorce is the best thing to happen to mom. Dad is just going to have to get over it, LOL

Trollonymous said...


Easy now Juliette.

Robert R said...

My apologies, ND, I was 1. confused at to the nature of the conflict, and 2. overserved some quantity of Dharma Rum. My language was pejorative.

But let's face it. We're supposed to see behind whatever mask MiB is wearing and see Titus Welliver. Motivationally, there is nothing there after the transfiguration that was not there before, save for increased hatred and frustration.

Robert R said...

I hope I will be permitted this metaphor, which I just woke up with. The source is a womb, the source of life. A foreign body enters, still vital, delivers its payload (soul, essence, consciousness), and emerges, flaccid and lifeless. What issues forth from the spring is offspring.
Life, Death, and Rebirth. Creation. Genesis. A new being in the great cycle of being/becoming.

Miguel said...

@ Robert R

I will use your comment when I give the birds and bees talk to my kids. :)