Wednesday, April 21, 2010

The Last Recruit - Community Call

Black Rock LOST Podcast: Season 6 episode 13 of ABC's TV show, LOST. Curt, Dan, Nancy Drew, Lost Lindsey and our friends from the Smoke Hatch along with James. Collectively we try to make sure everyone is up-to-speed on where the story is at as we get ready for the old school *march* the the finale.


Christian... check... Last Recruit... check It's all over and we'll all be Ok... huh?... Pieces ar in place on both sides of the Mobius Strip!

For more Nancy Drew


Ryan said...

Well I for one am not buying Christian is MIB...yet.

He might very well be but if he is then the whole "I can't leave the island." or "I can't go over water." is an out and out lie. I don't believe the John Denver "Cause I'm leavin' on a jet plane" plan either. If it was that simple then Widmore would have destroyed it already to stop him nevermind they had no pilot and don't now.

As I said before why appear to Frank, Sun, Michael, Vincent(!) and be spied by Hurley in the cabin?

Of course they may have totally changed their minds but then the producers will just look confused by their own story.

Jack only asked about that first island appearance not the hospital one or the one about Locke seeing Christian and the answer about Jack needing water was pretty weak considering he almost went over a cliff chasing him.

Add to that Claire saying she wasn't alone and both her father and her friend were with her for 3 years. She's lying to Jin about someone he's never met and can have no relevance whatsoever to that situation? If she knew that MIB mislead her about her father then why would she believe anything he said at all?

Robert R said...

(reposted from BRP facebook discussion)
Three points of speculation from this ep, and then a lot of miscellaneous observations:

1. When we see Ben riding with Locke in the ambulance, Ben says he doesn't know Locke's first name. (John told him in "The Substitute", but I guess he forgot.) We have an extreme close up of O'Quinn's face as he says "It's John. - My name is John Locke". In "Everybody Loves Hugo" when MiB asks Desmong if he knows who he is, Des says "Of course I do. You're John Locke." Maybe a reach, but I think we will see the reemergence of "I AM JOHN LOCKE" on the Island as MiB's struggle continues.

2. Even though alliances have been made, apparently there is still "wiggle room" when it comes to allegiance to MiB. Hurley mentions Anakin, who, for those of you who HAVEN'T SEEN the films, is redeemed from the Dark Side by the love of his son Luke in "Return of The Jedi" Though Claire seems to indicate it's a fait accompli, since they let MiB talk to them, we see Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Sun, Frank and (presumably) Sayid resisting MiB. Do the characters now have sealed Fates, or can they still exercise Free Will?

3. When Zoe traipses into MiB's camp, note the long look MiB gives to the walkie Zoe hands him before smashing it with his Jesus Stick. One of the first things Ben told Locke as they approached Jacob's cabin in "The Man Behind the Curtain" about Jacob was his disdain for any kind of technology. MiB/Jacob one and the same?

Sawyer is eating an apple, and offers an apple to Kate, which she declines. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this may be a reference to Satan tempting Eve with an apple, which represents Original Sin. Sawyer would have had better luck with a banana. (My private "inside joke" with myself is that Kate is monkey-like in appearance and manner, and would therefore crave bananas.)

On the way to the 15th floor, Des tells Claire that (adoption) "contracts are complicated" and that if not careful or ill-advised, one could find oneself in "a situation that was irreversible." I believe this references the "contracts" ("deals with the devil") that Locke offers his recruits, knowing that their souls will land in an "irreversible situation" (eternal damnation).

Sawyer, on the boat, calls Lapidus "Chesty". I believe this is a sarcastic reference to Lieutenant General Lewis Burwell "Chesty" Puller (June 26, 1898 – October 11, 1971), an officer in the United States Marine Corps. Puller is the most decorated U.S. Marine in history, and the only Marine to receive five Navy Crosses. I came to this conclusion because Frank is still wearing his spiffy uniform, albeit unbuttoned to reveal his "chesty" pecs.

When Jack looks at Locke's x-ray, he comment's that the "dural sac's obliterated". It was the accidental ripping of a patient's dural sac that gave us Jack's soliloquy to Kate in "Pilot, pt1" as well as the Christian "count to five" routine (same operation, now shown on camera) in "The Incident, pt1". The SAC is BACK!

When Jack finds his "jumping off point" (thanks Curt) on the boat, everyone except Sawyer and Kate has gone below with Frank to sample some tasty canned treats. Next time we cut back to the boat, they are wading ashore on Hydra where the sonic fence is set up. Don't you think there would have been some scene-worthy dialogue when Hurley and Sun emerged from the galley to find Jack had abandoned them? Don't you think they would have had some pretty pointed questions for Sawyer? This is either lazy writing, or time constraints forcing the scene to be cut. Either way, poor storytelling.

Robert R said...

(continued, due to the 4096-character Posting Limitation) :p

Sayid tells well-Des that MiB brought him back from death. Does this mean that MiB made the temple water muddy? 'Cuz last time I checked, resurrecting Sayid was pretty much Jacob's scheme.

Cop Sawyer trips Sayid with a green garden hose. Very reminiscent of one of our classic "Island trips".

Jack is regaling Sawyer with "crazy talk" on the boat. Tells him that it doesn't feel right, like a part of him is missing. Sawyer's retort is "They got *pills* for that, doc." It was pills that Jack turned to after returning from the island the 1st time. So there's some irony here, right?

warningtrax said...

Wow, Robert. Nice. Lots to chew on there.

While watching the confluence at he hospital, I couldn’t help but wonder if we’re in for another Gold Toe sock moment with a post-op Locke. If anything could wake up ATL Locke to the island reality, I would think the ability to walk again would top the list.

Similarly, I look for ATL Claire in labor to be her catalyst.

Is it just me or did much of the dialogue in this episode seem too on-the-nose? For some reason, the episode wasn’t as Lost-ish as previous weeks. Many of the comings and goings recently also seem to be a little contrived. It’s as if the writers wrote the finale and then worked backward to this particular episode, which felt a little shoe-horned.

I was sorry to see MTL Sawyer & Co. conned by Widmore. Just another in a long line of theories bites the dust. I am steadfast, however, in the belief that MTL Desmond is Jacob. The conversation at the well was so Jacobian, and I think it may save Sayid’s life.

Did anyone go "BZZZZZZZZZT!!!" at the Jin and Sun reunion. I did.

In nostalgic Locke fashion, I believe both the sub and the plane will be exploding soon.

I loved the Modern Warfare II ear-ringing when the shell exploded on the beach. For a spit second, I swore I was looking at the crash of 815 all over again.

More to come. I need to finish listening to the podcast and re-watch the episode.

Robert R said...

@trax, you are the Master, thank you for your kind words.

The writers and director of this episode are not our "main guys", so that may speak to the quality-control issue you brought up.

The way the Sun-Jin piece was shot (looking down the file of pylons separating them) did make the fence seem like a solid barrier, and they did blow Ilana up in a very mean-spirited way last week, so yeah, I too saw a major calamity in my head until they reached each other. Another reason this show rocks so hard.

eddy said...

hey guys, drop a few points in before i go to work. gotta say that trax and robert are both masters. giants. i see further on your shoulders haha.

the well was uite a lot shallower than i had thought. i thought he would be free falling, Alice-esque. maybe a subtle hint for us to dig deeper perhaps. maybe a wells is just a well. o well.

@ryan, i had the same thought as you re Christian. we know of "appearances" off island. and also claire's new statement of her knowing of MIB's subterfuge. but yes, it still kinda makes me think of whether he is telling the truth. or as the answers come thick and fast now, we are supposed to see them as models, which may not fit the full "observable data" we have gathered. if this was pure science, we would be laughed out of our presentation of the paper. but its pseudoscience, with pseudo answers perhaps.

desmond may indeed have been kidnapped for real without the planning of widmore. some had speculated a missing pieces scene where widdy and des plotted for him to get to MIb somehow and des took the kidnap as an opportunity to get to his objective.

sun and her near hysterical "its him!... its him!" was interesting but we can only speculate. so HER near death exp gave her some sight into the OT maybe, showing her the "evil" locke?

MIB explanation re how he is John Locke: jack asked "have you been anyone else? fan moment, like hurley as asking the questions. also his exposition was so forthcoming, barring his name of course. and he said, you were good enough to bring a dead body... in a wooden box. does wood have anything to do with it?

Vincence said...

I wanted to leave this theory with the Blackrock podcast because your podcast frequently discusses mirror images. My theory about Desmond is based almost entirely on mirror images.

I think Desmond is the new Jacob, or Jacob's loophole. Since he has been back on the island he has been calm and almost zen-like, just like Jacob. I think Desmond died when Ben shot him at the marina. I think he actually passed away at the hospital, and Charles Widmore took his corpse back to the island, just as Ben killed Locke in the hotel room and transported Locke's corpse back to the island. Man in Black/Smokey takes Locke's form, and I believe Jacob took Desmond's form. My guess is the submarine or the Hydra station holds Desmond's corspe, just as Ilana revealed John Locke's corpse to the Losties.

After Jacob threw Desmond into the well, and Sayid was told to go kill Desmond, the first thing Desmond says to Sayid is "What did he promise you?" This is a perfect mirror to what Jacob said to Richard on the beach in Ab Aeterno after Richard made a deal with Smokey to kill Jacob. Jacob was able to save Richard from a deal with Smokey, and I wonder if Desmond will be able to save Sayid from the darkness that has claimed his heart.

In the non-island timeline Desmond has a list of passengers on the flight from Sidney, and he is coming into contact with each of them, just like Jacob and his list of candidates and his interaction with them at various times in the island timeline. And while he makes suggestions to them, for example Hurley going to see Libby, Claire going to see his lawyer, he ultimately leaves their choices to free-will. However, hitting Locke with his car leaves me completely dumbfounded. The only mirror image I see with Locke feeling trapped in a wheelchair in the non-island timeline is Smokey feeling trapped on the island in the island-timeline. If Jack's surgery on Locke is successful, and Locke walks again, is this a mirror image that Smokey is freed in the island timeline?

Of course, this theory creates more questions:

Did Ben Linus and Charles Widmore know what they were doing in bringing the dead bodies back to the island? And if so, does this make Widmore team Jacob and Ben team Smokey? Is this why we see Ben at Locke's side in the non-island timeline?

Did Mrs. Hawking know about this corpse loophole as well since she gave instructions as to how to get back to the island with Locke's body in the island timeline? Is she team Smokey? Afterall, she told Desmond in the non-island timeline that he was not ready. Not ready for what? To allow Jacob's spirit to awaken within? Did she make a deal with Smokey so that she could have her son back? And does a deal with Smokey mean living in the non-island timeline with what you've requested of him? If this is the case, does this mean that those who seem to have a better life in the non-island timeline, like Jack and Eloise, made a deal with Smokey, whereas those still struggling with the same issues did not?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on my theory.

Great podcast, you guys rock! Black-rock!

Robert R said...

@eddy - I fear we have all the Christian answers we're going to get, since I read that the actor who plays Christian did not want to do LOST this season. Unless I am wrong, we'll have to write off his "anomalous" appearances to character "visions" or bad planning by the writers. For instance, I finally convinced myself that Christian telling Michael "You can go now." on the freighter was only a reference to Michael's efforts to kill himself (There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3), meaning that he could finally die. Shoddy work, if I'm right, but hey, make an omelette, you gotta break some eggs.

I enjoy your posts as well, brotha. :)

Robert R said...

@Vincence - I think you have a completely legitimate theory there, but I will only go so far as to say that yes, I believe Desmond's perspective has approached a Jacob-like consciousness. He has transcended the level of petty "us vs. them" human squabbles and sees the bigger picture. I also agree with you in the hope he can help Sayid see his way out of his pen.

When it comes to "sides", Des may know more than MiB does about where MiB needs to be. I think MiB needs a peer, which he does not currently have. The coming weeks will cure this unease. I hope the ride's worth enjoying, because that's my advise, for the moment.

Trollonymous said...

I think both the MIB and Jacob used Christian's appearance at various times.
The smoke pouring through the door and the wind outside when Christian showed Sun the '77 photo of the new Dharma recruits would suggest the MIB's doing except that at this point, wasn't he stuck in Locke's form?

Then again some of the appearances of Christian may be ghostly, who knows? The MIB might be an inveterate liar and the Island has shown it has a long reach.

As for 'the last recruit', has anyone considered that Liz Lemon 'spoke' with the MIB and may have been recruited in the process? I didn't hear Widmore give her any new orders regarding Sawyer's deal. She just said something to the effect of Aye,Aye Charles, I'll get right on that and the next thing we know, TWIST!

But maybe not, it's just a guess and I might be going by the crazy chick look on her face when she calls in the airstrike. That and the fact that her neck looks like it had received a zombie bite.

As for Desmond, he owes Sayid one for getting him through "The Constant". He may have just saved both Sayid and himself with that silver tongue.

Oh and Sun and Jin were quite safe during their wuthering heights re-enactment as Liz Lemon clearly ordered the pylons to be turned off. Then again they have some pretty low standards when comes to employing technicians, see moron in charge of generator switch in Happily Ever After, "oooopps!! My bad!"

No Roald Dahl reference? Didn't he write Little House On The Prairie?
It might have been watchable if he had.

Credit where it's due, Trollonymous was coined by Robert I think.

Trollonymous said...

Oh and before I forget, Sawyer told Jack to take a 'leap of faith' which he duly did.

Kierkegaard anyone?

Nancy Drew said...

I really hope you're kidding about the Little House/Roald Dahl thing. I'm going to assume that you are ;) And no, there haven't been any actual book references for Roald Dahl, other than the mention of the Oceanic "Golden Tickets". I really do find it amazing, though, that he's NOT referenced more, especially when he's the author of books like James and the Giant Peach, Matilda, The Fantastic Mr. Fox, The Magic Finger, and many more in that genre.

Anonymous said...

Guys, there are some people on your podcast that have entirely missed the boat (so to speak) on what Lost is all about.

Have you heard of paralysis by analysis?

Curt said...

As an IT Analyst/Architect I am very familiar with both the concept and reality of Analysis Paralysis.

So... what's it all about?

Anonymous said...

What's "Lost" about?

All the attempts that humanity has tried throughout existence to find so-called "truth". It's just a fun epic swashbuckler set amoungst the master narratives of existence and purpose with some hot characters in it to make us pay attention to these things...

Anonymous said...

What's "Lost" about?

All the attempts that humanity has tried throughout existence to find so-called "truth". It's just a fun epic swashbuckler set amoungst the master narratives of existence and purpose with some hot characters in it to make us pay attention to these things...

Trollonymous said...

Yeah! anon is right. And on top of that, the sound on some of your mics is so dim, I can barely hear the paralysis.

I enjoyed the point in this podcast where the moderator actually flexed his muscles for once and said he wasn't prepared to spend anymore time debating a particular subject and was moving on. I'd like to see more of that even though the debate in question was I believe, (and I could be wrong here as it was a long podcast and I am not the RCA Victor Dog) concerning Christian's appearances which deserved debate as the MIB's story was full of holes.

Still, conflict is the essence of drama but if the debate is going to be that anaemic,the mod was right to move on. If a couple of you are going to fight then really have at it. And if it's good please don't be 'that' guy and try to diffuse the tension with some lame joke or "someone's got their voice back" type piffle. If we're all going to be paralyzed we may as well enjoy the ride out of Anthony Cooper's window and be entertained on the way down.

Maybe that's what Lost is "all about", it's an ENTERTAINMENT designed to generate advertising dollars which just happened to become a mythology unto itself along the way.

and yes ND I was kidding about Dahl and Little House. My very own 'tale of the unexpected'.

warningtrax said...

“Standing on the shoulders of giants.” How Newtonian of you, Eddy.

I’ll need to watch the scene again, but I think it may be significant that Jack’s ears were badly ringing after the shell exploded. At this time, didn’t MIB say, “You’re with me now,” or something to that effect? Did Jack hear him? Did Jack hear anything that was said to him? I just find it curious that the “ear ringing” was included in this scene when it was not included during the earlier strike on MIB’s camp. Was that explosion that much farther away?

Regardless, MIB didn’t even blink when that bad boy went off. Awesome.

warningtrax said...

"Don't you think there would have been some scene-worthy dialogue when Hurley and Sun emerged from the galley to find Jack had abandoned them?"

@ Robert R.....Amen. That was terrible. It's almost as if the writers wrote themselves into a corner.

Robert R said...

@Troll (see what I did there?) - Please allow me, as a consumer of this podcast, to give a bit of perspective. I have been listening to BRP since early Season 5, and weekly through the hiatus rewatch.

The issues you bring up are legitimate. They have been present for as long as I have been listening, and having a (useless) Radio-TV-Film degree and a recording studio background, I am quite capable of making the same criticisms and pointing out where production value could be improved. Same goes with "bogging" and the quality of discussion.

But I don't usually, and here's why:

In the Internet world of blogs and board postings, we've come to expect either at best a meritocracy or at worst he-who-has-the-biggest-flame-thrower-wins. I don' know Curt or Amy or Stef or Lindsey or Dan, but I see (hear?) through the voices and understand that there are human people out there doing this podcast for us, and I don't necessarily agree with them all the time, but I'm not going to lash out at any of them for technical, professional or intellectual failings. It's kinda mean, and though it's easy to be mean on the Internet, that doesn't mean we should treat each other with disregard just because the snow is not like we would have done it.
My vote is for civility and decency toward these folks. We all have feelings.

Nancy Drew said...

Practice what you preach. When you can provide a link to your "perfect" Lost podcast and show proof of the abundance of downloading fans, then I'll take you seriously. For now, however, I take your comments with a grain of salt.

You know, for someone who complains so much about our show, you seem to listen regularly. I guess that means we can't be all that bad :)

Trollonymous said...

Practice what I preach? Librarian mend thyself. Take this with as big a dose of salt as you like since that's what you're meant to do with all my posts in case you've missed the tone, but what you seem to be saying is that I shouldn't be criticizing your podcast because I have no podcast of my own to present as a better example. Have I got that right? Please post a link to the hit TV show you have written which qualifies you to be critical of Lost.
You know, for someone who doesn't take me seriously, something seems to be getting under your skin. It wasn't my aim. For what it's worth, where you perceive complaints, some see feedback. And yes , your podcast is head and shoulders above most Lost Pods.

~passive aggressive salty smiley face

Robert, I respect your qualifications and your opinion but for the second time, I have already conceded that the podcast technology does in fact have it's limitations. I get it.

As for your civility concerns, I believe it's possible to maintain civility during vigorous debate. It's healthy. I'm not advocating a shouting match to settle differences, meritocracy extends to arguments and theories as much as to longevity and qualifications, even more perhaps.

~yours in civility,

The @Troll

J. Maggio said...

Some people are having problems with the Christian as MiB reveal. I feel this is another example of people not THINKING about the things. THINK. They will not be explicit about things. (And, when they are, like the whispers, people bitch.) It makes sense completely: MiB became trapped when Jacob died. (This is implied by Illana earlier in season, and made explicit by Damon and Carlton in an official podcast.) Also, all of island-Christian's moves either tried to harm the Losties, or fed into MiB's loophole. For example, people also are complaining that Christian was off the island. But, MiB's essence is trapped on island, but he could clearly manifest to people around the world. (Hence, he is Christian on freighter and in Jack's office. He is likely also Charlie to Hurley. Charlie's comment to Hurley "Beginning of the End" is the same as Flocke's to Sawyer in "The Substitute": "I am dead but I am here." ) Once Jacob is dead, Smokie is stuck in ONE corporeal form. (He is now only Locke and the Black Smoke.) However, because he is corporeal now, he *can* leave the island--assuming he leaves with or, maybe, kills the candidates.

It might be explored more, but I think it fits perfectly now. It just takes people a little thinking.


J. Maggio said...

To clarify above. MiB's essence has always been trapped on island. He became trapped in Locke's body, and hence could possibly leave, once Jacob died. I hope that makes sense.

Trollonymous said...

Jacob's death trapping MIB in one body makes a lot of sense since MIB was able to take both Locke's form and the appearance of Alex almost instantly at Ben's 'judgement'.

Fake Locke first appears after Christian shows the '77 Dharma Recruit photo to Sun.

So how did the MIB travel to Hydra Island to take Locke's form in the first place? Does it matter?

Curt said...

Once again, tons to digest, lots of good feedback and why we almost always need time to really digest the information.

@Anon, I don't think Lost is about people trying to find the truth and just a fun swashbuckler. I still see it as the canonical battle between good and evil where the mundane choices of everyday people can make a difference in the fate of the world.

While I like the Christian stuff, there is still a gapping hole in his ability to be on the boat or in LA. It's not even clear to me how he was in 1977. But... it's just not important enough to the story or it's mythology for me to get wrapped up in the mechanics of it all.

@Trollonomous - It's all good to me. I file your stuff right with the *you guys are the best stuff* We have never been more than fans sharing our passion for Lost. We've always tried to support the community anyway we can have always tried to build something up and never tear stuff/people down (in the fandom anyway). Having said that, I never wanted to come off as apologist for the show either like some podcast had been back when I listened to them all. Dan and I take all of this feedback seriously and have really good discussions about it. But this late in the game I find myself not too compelled to continue to tweak the show, it has a life of it's own now and soon, it will be done.

Trollonymous said...

Regarding Christian, Curt said," it's just not important enough to the story or it's mythology for me to get wrapped up in the mechanics of it all."

I think I agree, that's why I posed the question, "does it matter?" Probably not, as Locke's resurrection reveal would have lost much of it's impact had they shown Christian paddling across the water to claim his new ride.

Regarding the lack of comment between the candidates upon discovering Jack's absence from the boat, after all they've been through with Jack, do you really think anyone was surprised he was gone? They were probably more shocked to come back on deck and find that Kate was still there.

As for the podcast, I'm not kidding when I say it's head and shoulders above most. Sure, a lot of Lost podcasts are sheer Room 23 style torture to listen to (so forgive me if this sounds like faint praise, it isn't)but I know that your podcast and comment page are usually going to point out something which everyone else has missed. Which is good.

And yes, it is late in the game, can't argue with that. Daniel Faraday might, but I won't.

While I'm here, I thought Jack's statement to Sawyer that he felt like part of himself was missing the last time he left the Island was just a bit too cute considering how many characters in the Lost mythos have lost bodyparts. Arms, legs, a kidney, eyes, Sayid's soul, Artz and Ilana's everything, you name it, someone's lost it.

BTW, did anyone else laugh out loud when Kate got whacked in the face with a branch? She coulda lost an eye.

Robert R said...

@Troll - To answer your last question about MiB/Hydra, how about as Christian on a boat? Would have been nice to see, but well, you know . . .

Robert R said...

I hate when that happens. It makes me appear unintelligent.

Nancy Drew said...

@Troll......tone noted

And FYI, my tv shows, Big Ankh Theory and Ankh & Order are both in negotiations. Nancy Drew After Dark is in the works with HBO, provided we find a body double STAT! :)

cardinal wolsey said...

Is anybody going to try to explain how Sun and Locke managed to arrive at the hospital at precisely the same time?

Locke managed to get arrive from Australia, get fired, go to an agency, get a job at a school (less the 6 months of FBI checks) We'll be generous and call it a week. How long was Jin in that freezer? A day at best.

This is Lost though, probabvly magic time...

After all, we have...

magic ash
magic kisses
magic touches
magic light
magic caves
magic desmonds
magic wells that get less deep.

As much as i enjoy your analysis, seems to me you could have saved some time...
it's all magic isn't it...

I swear the writers have gone on holiday this season.
I'm going to pretend the incident was the last ever episode.

Was lost always this cheesy?

Nancy Drew said...

I think Desmond established the flash sideways time line already, didn't he? I thought he said that the flight was a week prior to where they are now in time. Wait! Maybe it was Sawyer when he was talking to Kate.

Sorry, this is where I get in trouble on a podcast for making stuff up, but truly, it's the lack of a good filter between my brain and my mouth while I think these thoughts through (and obviously now the lack of that filter between brain and keyboard).

I think it was Sawyer who said it was a week since the flight. I'm sticking to that (for now) haha!

Trollonymous said...

If I may,

your Eminence,

The Bible is full of crazier stuff than Lost yet you are a Prince of the Church. And you've been dead for centuries.

Also, they have a smoke monster.

Trollonymous said...


there's a bit of a disconnect going on here. The page says you posted your nautical drunk spinal surgeon themed post at 11:05 pm but where I am it's only about a quarter past nine. If you time it right you can stop yourself from posting that message in the future.

No need to thank me.

Ryan said...

If it somehow turns out that MIB was really Christian all along then it makes sense.

What I mean by that is that he really is Christian and Jack's father. He became Christian, left the island and had a family. That's why we've never gotten his name.

Sounds crazy but it would explain that he can in fact leave the island and travel over water but lies about being able to do so. It's not about leaving the island but leaving the entire world and going home. So the big reveal in the last episode will be that he is Christian and then all this other stuff including appearing to Vincent falls into place.

Obviously Christian had a real body so how that works I don't know but then again his body in the X timeline is gone and the figure in the cabin was there with Christian. Is that significant?

Then again the other answer is that Christian is connected to the actual spirit of the Island the other party we've been talking about for years apart from Jacob and MIB.

Trollonymous said...

Somehow, I find it hard to envision a scene where dialogue such as,"Hi, I'm the Smoke Monster and I'm an alcoholic." is spoken.

And if the MIB were also Christian, he would have guzzled that wine Jacob gave him instead of smashing it against a rock.

Jacob might have had a word with Smokie/Christian after handing Jack the apollo bar in the hospital to ask him, "WTF man"?

If Ryan is proven correct, I'm going to want all the money I spent on DVDs handed back to me by Damon and Carlton themselves.

Miguel said...

Previous posts mention that MIB’s essence was trapped in Locke’s body. Locke’s body is buried on the island so MIB only takes the form of someone’s dead body and doesn't actually inhabit the body.
I wonder how it would work with him getting off the island and not having a real organic body. I think Smokey was a real human being and when his humanity was taken away he lost his body but his spirit conscience was left roaming the island looking for a suitable host to help him get of the island. I don’t think that he wants to physically get of the island as Locke, but he wants to get of the island to his own body in his own time line. He wants to have a similar experience to Desmond’s way of flashing from one time line to another. Smokey hopes that he will stay in that other time line since he will not have a body to flash back to once he leaves and Jacob will be out of candidates.
Why John Locke?
I really don’t know why Smokey would choose him. Well I guess he told us that he was easy to manipulate and maybe it had to be the body of a former candidate. Well I have some crackpot theories but too long to bore you all.

Curt said...

@Miguel - Thanks for pointing that out, I caught that too about Locke's body. As to *Why*, I think we got some direct exposition on that but I forget the details. MIB needed someone who could get into the Statue or something like that.

Mairuzu said...

I figured MiB just became corporeal as that person--not necessarily taking their body (otherwise, why would we have a dead Locke corpse to bury WHILE there's a MiB wandering around with his face? I just think it has something to do with being stuck as Locke (going between smoke and only Locke).. but it raises more questions for me.

Trollonymous said...

Such as, must the MIB take on the appearance of someone who's corpse is on the Island?

Now I know this may not be the case since the MIB has taken on the form of a medusa spider and possibly Walt and Vincent (deal with it).

I mean the writers were pushing us to that way of thinking by having Christian's corpse missing from it's coffin and an expired Yemi appearing to Mr Eko not as Eko remembered him but in pretty dusty and ratty old clothes if I recall correctly.

I guess what I'm getting at is I don't think the writers have adequately defined the MIB's limitations, physically or with respect to the rather nebulous Island rules. If, prior to Jacob's death, he could take on any form he wanted to (dead or alive,buried on or off the island in the case of the deceased) then who hasn't he been in the history of this show?

Because of this, almost the entire on-Island canon is questionable.
Have I missed something?

Curt said...

You have no idea how hard it is to get worms back in the can.

Nancy Drew said...

It's easier to get worms back in the can if you put them in the blender first ;)

I rewatched the pilot episode and I can't believe what a difference a season makes! Or a partial one, anyway. When we rewatched after Season 5, we were in this whole "reset" frame of mind and I think we viewed the pilot episode in that light, but HOLY VINCENT! It's really got me thinking!

First of all, Jack wakes up in the jungle, after blacking out during the crash. Kate tells him later that she remembers the whole thing. John also blacks out, as does Rose and some of the other passengers. Not sure why this didn't stand out to me over the rewatch, but it seems very "Ajira"-like in how Jack, Kate, and Hurley landed on the island. Plus, the way Kate remember every moment of the crash of the Oceanic is like Sun NOT flashing off of the Ajira. I wonder if there's this whole thing going on in the pilot that we've never realized before??

Also, I know I joked in one (several) of the last shows about MIB being Vincent, but there is definitely something up with that dog! And then to realize that John Locke is the one that managed to figure out a way to "communicate" to Vincent and call to him is really creepy--almost like he was "inviting" it.

Another tidbit about the pilot episode is that Jack doesn't tell the "count to 5" story exactly how we later see it play out with Jacob. It makes me think that Jacob went back to pay everyone their visits in another go-round of the time line. Jack easily could have said to Kate that his dad made him count to 5 and given just as much merit to the technique of working through fear, so why did he say it like that? There's been so much emphasis on that part of the story through the seasons that I can't just chalk it up to being an error in the writing.

And the last bit (more to be brought up Sunday--spoiler alert) is that when the Losties hear the Smokey noises that first night, they start looking into the directions of the sounds. First looking extreme left, then extreme right, then left, then either Smokey CAN be in two places at once, or BOTH Jacob and MIB can be the smoke monsters! The Losties were definitely hearing two different entities! I challenge you to go back to that scene and post what your opinions are! :)

See ya Sunday night!

Miguel said...

Speaking of holy Vincent, I just watched mobisode 13 on Youtube. Its kinda creepy seeing Cristian(Smokey) telling Vincent to go wake up jack because he has work to do.

I agree with Nancy that the crash in the pilot episode is very Ajira like. When we say alternate time line I think we really mean parallel universe. I think the original flight was flying over the island just like it was flying over the sunken island in the start of season6. Well as our original flight was flying over the island so was was another flight in a parallel universe. This flight actually had Lapidus flying the plane. When Desmond caused that flash incident the original flight was pulled in to the island and the parallel flight was spit out in to the original universe crashing in to the ocean. It was the plane that they found in the ocean. We are led to believe that Widmore faked that crash but I don't believe it. Desmond not pushing caused an incident similar to the white rabbit experiment that we saw Dr Chang do in the video. I wonder if our candidate losties would have just flashed out of the original flight just like in the Ajira one if Desmond wouldn't have failed to push the button. Sun not flashing out of the Ajira flight might be more evidence that Jin is the candidate and not her.

Trollonymous said...

Either the MiB is able to be in two places at one time,(I hope not) or he moves very quickly ( which he can do) Or the commotion was Jacob and the MiB in conflict.

I think that is over thinking things, the reactions of the survivors were meant to show their terror and to give the source of their new fears an immense power and size, without revealing it's nature too early. The unknown threat ups the stakes meaning it may not be thirst, hunger and exposure that kills them before they are rescued, it may be the monster. Then of course they add the others to the mix.

The MiB may not have been Walt as Ms. Bea asked Michael if Walt had ever appeared to be somewhere he shouldn't be. This suggests Walt can be in two places at once. He's special.

The others sure were quick to try and snatch up any spare children on the island, fertility problems or not,I wonder what their signifigance to the MiB is.

Also I think the 5 count of fear will be seen again before this thing is over.

Also Jacob's tapestries tell a tale similar to that of Napoleon's exile which of course was mentioned by alt-Ben in his history lesson.

The MiB is an ancient evil bad-ass imprisoned on an Island which can only be found when it wants to be and Jacob is his guard/punisher, trying to prove to him that he was wrong to kill all those nice black and yellow clad people back in Egypt or Atlantis or where ever.
His rehabilitation has not been going very well. There's probably more to it than that but I am trying to use evidence from the show to come up with this rather than introducing intangables like essensce and cartesian bloody dualism.

Ryan said...

Then of course there is the other familial explanation that Jack is Jacob's descendant. Is there any reason that Jacob couldn't have kids and that Ray, Christian and Jack are all part of his line?

Seemingly mere seconds after the crash Christian is all ready and walking about talking about a job Jack has to do. In Light House Jacob says the same thing about a job Jack has to do and he knows exactly what to say to get Jack there so he's getting specific information from somewhere "You have what it takes" and we've been told Jacob isn't a shapechanger (believe that if you will but no evidence suggests that he can as far as I can tell).

Jacob is certainly long planning enough to start a whole family line in his duel with MIB. I think though that if the Christian thing has something in it's favour is the job is Jack killing MIB his father as we've seen several times.

Then again if Jacob and MIB are two sides of the same coin we add another layer.

Certainly getting 315 to the island was done in part by Jacob, Widmore, Hawking and MIB. The question is who are Widmore and Hawking working for? One, the other or themselves together or alone?

My thought is that as long as there are candidates MIB can't "leave" whatever that means so he needs them back on the island together. Practically Sawyer and the rest couldn't have left the 70's without the others coming back to get them.

I think that MIB thinks he is perverting Jacob's plans but as said before it's a long con by Jacob where MIB is the plan and he's doing exactly what Jacob wants him to do. MIB thinks he's using Locke but that is the main thing that Jacob counted on MIB doing.

Bill said...

Random thoughts on a rainy sunday:

-heard Anna from Jacob's Cabin talking about freaky timeline in sideways...Sun and Locke at hospital together when it's seemingly only day 2 after flight for sun and jin, and at least a week for locke.

-Jack operating on Locke looks similar to him working on Ben, the whole mirror thing.

-and speaking of operating on the bad guy, could jack saving locke here, who's prob been connected to island locke now, bring evil incarnate to the shangrila of sideways?

-i'm thinking all kate needs for protection from claire is a water bottle with a spray nozzle, everytime claire starts going off crazy give her couple of spritzes, put her right back in line. works on the cat all the time

devon.miller said...

In the brighter light of a re-watch and the Christian-Gate that has developed on this blog and others, I suppose I find myself with the opinion that follows.

The writers screwed up.

The writers screwed this Christian thing up and will likely continue to screw up other things as well. For me, lack of clear and concrete rules that govern the appearance of Christian is bothersome. Still, I can let most of the mythological inconsistencies slide. Yes, I understand that the writers created this universe, it’s properties and the rules by which it is governed but I think we’re bound to see some sloppiness in the execution when you consider the pace they have been on for six seasons. It is my understanding that the Lost writing and production schedule is unprecedented. I think it’s entirely possible we are now witnessing the price of innovation.

Incidentally, I recall an Official Lost Podcast where Darlton played a game in which guesses as the nature of the appearances of dead characters we made. Two of the choices were "Smokie" and "apparition". I believe “other” was a third choice. Should we be required to follow programming outside the show to fully understand Darlton’s created universe? Probably not.

All that being said, I’m still concerned. Once plot lines feel contrived or character motivations change or become unclear, the story begins to fall under its own weight. When viewers don’t understand what our characters want, without point blank in-you-face exposition, viewers stop being viewers...well, except if you watch House. For me, I’m holding out for the hero’s journey. Give me one character, fully transformed, that becomes elevated to hero status and I’m good.

Oh, um, I’d still also like to know who wrote the Latin notes on the blast door map, who Adam and Eve were, the whole numbers thing, al.

JayJay said...


On the last podcast you said that's the end of the MIB/Christian appearance. I don't agree, and just like Lindsey need more closure. When MIB took on Christian's form he also took his body, as to date, we've never found it. But for Locke he took his form and left the body. Why such a difference. I hope that we don't find Christian's body somewhere in the jungle, which would blow my case. But it would also parallel if Jack finally received his dad's lost coffin in the ATL.

In the last episode of LOST; am I the only one that thought the pushing of Desmond down the well was similar to Darth Vader pushing the emperor down the shaft to kill him and bring balance to the force.

Mairuzu said...

Jay, I never said that was the end of the Christian appearance. Not sure who did--wasn't me, though. :)