Wednesday, March 24, 2010

Ab Aeterno - Community Call

Black Rock LOST Podcast: Season 6 episode 9 of ABC's TV show, LOST. Curt, Dan, Nancy Drew, Lost Lindsey and our friends from the Smoke Hatch and James. The return of Jason as well! Collectively we try to process the latest episode in our popular Initial Reactions format.


Finally we know what it is all about, now how do we get to the resolution...

For more Nancy Drew


eddy said...

first post. woo hoo!

i'm still listening to the podcast. the ep was a long time coming. my initial reaction, soo many great scenes. i don't know if any one has made a correction in the later half of the podcast but i am thinking that we have indeed seen further than 1867 Tenerife.

In the season 5 The Incident, we see MIB and Jacob speaking on the beach with a full and very much together statue. The ship we have assumed was the Black Rock but i would now say that it was just another unnamed ship that Jacob has brought to the island, as he said to RA - there have been others brought to the island but they are all dead.

That was in some unspecified time before the Black Rock. Becuase we see that ship in sunny skies. We see the Black Rock basically getting shipwrecked by a huge storm - haha and i also agree its a stretch for a huge wave that sent the Black Rock inland and knocked over the statue. So we must also assume that the island has moved in the intervening years and left the rubble behind, so all that's left is the foot.

have heaps more thoughts. but may see what other thoughts are provoked by the podcast

Nancy Drew said...

As of right now, I'm sticking to my initial thought that the ship Jacob and MIB were looking at on the horizon was the Black Rock. We have no reason to believe that it's any other ship, despite the mention of other people being brought to the island. I think that line just establishes that this is an ongoing cycle for Jacob and MIB. It's clearly a sunny, clear DAY, but weather changes, sometimes dramatically, by nightfall and this, in my opinion, is the case here.

As far as the wave that brings the ship in to the island, I think that is very plausible, as well. I think it's very reminiscent of how Alexandria crumbled into the sea, but there were other tsunamis recorded in history around the time of the Black Rock. One even states that the wave was big and powerful enough to move warships:

On April 2, 1868, a local earthquake with a magnitude estimated between 7.5 and 8.0 rocked the southeast coast of the Big Island of Hawaiʻi. It triggered a landslide on the slopes of the Mauna Loa volcano, five miles north of Pahala, killing 31 people. A tsunami then claimed 46 additional lives. The villages of Punaluu, Ninole, Kawaa, Honuapo, and Keauhou Landing were severely damaged and the village of ʻĀpua was destroyed. According to one account, the tsunami "rolled in over the tops of the coconut trees, probably 60 feet high .... inland a distance of a quarter of a mile in some places, taking out to sea when it returned, houses, men, women, and almost everything movable." This was reported in the 1988 edition of Walter C. Dudley's book "Tsunami!"

On August 16, 1868, an earthquake with a magnitude estimated at 8.5 struck the oceanic trench currently known as the Peru-Chile Trench. A resulting tsunami struck the port of Arica, then part of Peru, killing an estimated 25,000 in Arica and 70,000 in all. Three military vessels anchored at Arica, the US warship Wateree and the storeship Fredonia, and the Peruvian warship America, were swept up by the tsunami.

The island volcano of Krakatoa in Indonesia exploded with devastating fury on August 26-27, 1883, blowing its underground magma chamber partly empty so that much overlying land and seabed collapsed into it. A series of large tsunami waves was generated from the collapse, some reaching a height of over 40 meters above sea level. Tsunami waves were observed throughout the Indian Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, and even as far away as the American West Coast, and South America. On the facing coasts of Java and Sumatra the sea flood went many miles inland and caused such vast loss of life that one area was never resettled but went back to the jungle and is now the Ujung Kulon nature reserve.

eddy said...

hey amy. i am being tossed back and forth by the waves of logic and i guess i am happy to presume the ship can be the Black Rock. Hanso seems to be a BIIIG name in Lost mythology and there might have been links made by Jacob with Magnus or his forebears on previous trips from the island.

Are we to suppose that Jacob utilised or turned a blind eye to the slave trade as a means to get people to the island. based on our Losties, there may be method to his madness. he knows that these people will be "saved" from slavery by being given "freedom" on the island.

if these are the scum of the earth- murderers, thieves etc maybe he wants to see if they may change by being on an island where miracles happen, and you get a tabula rasa or clean slate to begin life anew. what would people do with that opportunity - squander it and try to fulfil all their sinful pleasures or have a fresh start. and the best test is one where the place is not free from temptation but maybe temptation is all around, by the influence of MIB. (wow just heard it on the podcast, cool)

re the bible page that RA showed to the Padre at confession. the top of the page was Luke Chapter 4 verse 24. This verse follows the account of Jesus as he goes thru his home town of Nazareth where he gets quite a cool reception. Jesus speaks to the synagogue and says "I tell you the truth, no prophet is accepted in his hometown"

More importantly is what is on the other half of the page. It is the start of Luke Chapter 4. It is the account of the temptation of Jesus after he gets baptised. This passage informs many aspects of Lost and the larger narrative. Jacob says that he wants people to choose the right path on their own, and like Curt says, RA gives him pause with his statement. So at that moment he changes tact, a little.

He probably wants people to be like how Jesus responds to the devil in his testing/temptation in the wilderness. For every type of temptation: firstly physical needs, hunger. secondly, power and dominion. thirdly, preserving or extending life - Jesus had an answer. I guess how this informs my view of the narrative in that Jacob wants humanity to come to a point where it can make the choice/response in a way that passes the "test" or temptation. Jacob just does it from a point of non interference.

eddy said...

Thaddeus Weaver LOL

great funny moment :)

Ryan said...

So MIB was Smokie even back then but he's trapped by Jacob. His body was taken by Jacob. I was wondering if he became the Monster later or after events of the Black Rock.

The Others didn't exist at this time.

Smokie can take on the form of any dead person ever like Isabella even if they didn't die on the island. It doesn't matter where they died or if their body is on the island or not. So MIB didn't actually need Locke's body back on the island per se but simply needed it for deception to make Ben believe it was him.

Still odd about Richard since he knows MIB is Smokie and can take on any form of a dead person. Once he learned Locke was dead you'd think an alarm would go off. I guess he thought that with Jacob alive MIB wasn't much of a concern.

So the island is a cork to stop hell from getting out. I think this is a bit of a metaphor for Ricardos' sake. I think Jacob means images of the dead would flood the Earth or something. I sort of doubt Isabella's in hell so people in "heaven" can visit as well.

MIB is still the man with no name. I wonder if we'll ever find it out? It must be one hell of a name.

Alan said...

If that's the Black Rock, what's it been doing for hours while the sun went down and a gigantic hurricane-like storm developed.... all the while the Black Rock was just sitting there in front of the statue? If so, what was it waiting for? Conclusion: the boat we saw earlier was not the Black Rock, just one of many ships brought to the island by Jacob.

As far as the Black Rock flying in on a wave and breaking the statue into a million pieces.... If a wooden ship crashes into a stone statue, I'm gonna say the ship would be the thing that breaks into many little pieces. However, the majority of the Black Rock is still intact, but the statue is in pieces. Seems kinid of weak to me. Although I'll accept that a big enough wave could destroy the statue, I'd have to wonder how the ship could still be mostly intact.

Degringolade said...

As a Man of Science this is not really my area of expertise, but the references to the Devil/corked bottles used to imprison black smoke put me in mind of the Arabic Djinn or "genie." Let us consider some FUN FACTS about the Jin... umm... I mean Djinn... cribbed from various Wiki sources and enhanced by SELECTIVE CAPITALIZATION by me:

1) In Arabic mythology the djinn is a supernatural creature that occupies a PARALLEL DIMENSION to that of mankind and together with humans and angels makes up the three sentient creations of Allah. Possessing FREE WILL, a djinn can be EITHER GOOD or EVIL.

2) While Christian tradition suggests that Lucifer was an angel that rebelled against God's orders, Islam maintains that Iblis was a Djinn who had been granted special privilege to live amongst angels prior to his rebellion.

3) "Djinn" is the plural for "djini" which is derived from the Arabic root "JaNaA" and means "TO HIDE OR BE HIDDEN." Arabic lexicons provide the rendered meaning of djinn not only for spirits, but also for anything concealed through TIME, STATUS, and even PHYSICAL DARKNESS.

4) In other cultures, as in the mythology of the now-extinct Guanches (the first recorded inhabitants of THE CANARY ISLANDS), there also existed the belief in beings that qualify as "genies."

5) In Islamic theology djinn are said to be creatures with free will, made from 'SMOKELESS FIRE' by Allah in the same way humans were made of earth. According to the Koran, Djinn have free will, and Iblis abused this freedom in front of Allah by refusing to bow to Adam when Allah told Iblis to do so. By disobeying Allah, he was thrown out of Paradise and called “Shaitan”.

6) The Koran also mentions that Muhammad was sent as a prophet to BOTH “humanity and the Djinn”.

7) They are usually invisible to humans and humans do not appear clear to them. However, djinn often harass and even POSSESS humans, for various reasons, such as romantic infatuation, revenge, or due to a deal made with a practitioner of black magic. Djinns have the power to travel large distances at extreme speeds and are thought to live in remote areas, mountains, seas, trees, and the air, in their own communities. Like humans, djinns will also be judged on the Day of Judgment and will be sent to Heaven or Hell according to their deeds.

8) Every person is assigned a special "djinn" to them, also called a qareen, the djinns that WHISPER into your soul and tell you to give in to your evil desires.

9) Muhammad reportedly divided djinn into three classes: those who have wings and fly in the air, those who resemble snakes and dogs, and those who travel about ceaselessly. In addition to their animal forms, the djinn occasionally ASSUME HUMAN FORM to mislead and destroy their human victims.

10) Muslims believe that the Djinn account for much of the "magic" perceived by humans, cooperating with magicians to lift items in the air unseen, delivering hidden truths to FORTUNE TELLERS, and mimicking the VOICES of deceased humans during seances.

I thought Ms. Drew might enjoy this more than most.

Degringolade said...

I neglected to mention the "wish fulfillment" aspect of Smokey's offers to various people which put me in mind of the more contemporary idea of the "genie."

JayJay said...

I agree with Amy. I really think the writters messed up, the ship in the Incident was supposed to be the Black Rock, but someone in the writting studio had to conjure up an idea of how to land the ship in the middle of the island. So now we're left with this episode, and the only defense they will have is; it was a totally different ship. If so were is it on the island? presumably it landed somewhere, and how come we haven't seen it on the shoreline? Or is it because we weren't looking for it?

Ryan said...

I don't think it's really that much of a problem. We don't know for sure that the crew on the Black Rock could actually see the island in front of them or even if they did why would they land on it since it wasn't their destination anyway?

Let's say they did see the island. OK fine then they tried to steer away and then got caught up in the storm. We only see the POV of the prisoners not the crew so whether they saw the island in daylight or not and what they did up until the point of the storm is unknown.

Did Jacob whip the storm up? Seems so. If he did then it going from clear day to violent storm to get them there isn't a problem.

Nancy Drew said...

It's funny that you bring that up because one of my first theories about Smokey was that it was a Djinn. I was reading a great new series in Juvenile lit. at the time called "Children of the Lamp", and there were some characteristics in there that reminded me of it. I'll have to see if I can dig up what I had thought way back then.

I think the force of the wave alone was enough to knock Tawaret on her butt, and the ship probably had very little to do with it. I know it crashed into it, but I think everyone is assuming that we're to believe a wooden ship knocked down a stone statue. It was the wave, not the boat. And it wasn't like the boat landed without apparent damage, either.

Mairuzu said...

As the good Doctor once said, "Water always wins."

Despite that.. I'm with Eddy's first post on BOTH counts: I don't buy that that was the Black Rock in the incident--we never saw the name on the boat's POOP deck. And I have EVERY reason to believe it isn't the Black Rock because there's NOTHING specific to support that it is. What we DON'T have any reason to believe is that it IS the Black Rock--explain to me how you have ANY specific reason to believe that, AMY. :)

Also.. that wave was ridiculously titanic. It seemed NOT to be tall enough to put the Black Rock where it ended up.. yet big enough to lift it THAT high up and still leave tons of wildlife, plants and much of the beach unaffected? I don't think we saw all that much erosion from the tsunami in question except one (1) clearly not-up-to-code statue of Tawret. :)

Degringolade has the single best post EVER, back there, on the djinn theory. I... really.. reaaaally like it and it click soooo perfectly! PLUS it still works the best with the ancient Egyptian and other religions with similar fantastic creatures.

Kudos, lad. MY favorite posting on the blog so far both the best, most believable aspect as well as the best details to support it.

Also.. LAST POST! ..maybe not. :) Dangit. heheh

Curt said...

It was the same kind of ship at a time when the statue was still standing. There is no other ship in the narrative.

the ONLY reason we have to think it ISN'T was that it was a sunny DAY and the BR crashed on a stormy NIGHT. All of this in a show that is about light and dark, hello...

I now think it was MIB who *brought* the BR and a condemned and whom he could tell was in hell and get to kill the devil.

Nancy Drew said...

The only thing I can say is compare for yourselves:

I look at the images in comparison and see that the butt of the boat in both of the pictures matches in design and even here:

And in this last one, you can see all the brokenness of the ship--damage caused by the crashing into the island--along with plant growth.

Also, the Black Rock set sail in 1845 (according to the auctioneer of the first mate's journal), but that could be in reference to the maiden voyage. It is also said, according to the journal, that the ship was lost at sea. I'm sure, like with the Oceanic Flight 815, once it got close enough to the island, they lost use of their compass, and because of the island's movement, also became confused on their bearings on the sea charts (assuming that once they got within the "bubble" of the island they moved with it).

Argue with THAT! :P


(P.S. Dan, James, and Jason.......Thanks for the great conversation after the podcast!! 8) )

arturo said...

It is probably Black Rock, and it got entered into a a time warmhole while approaching the island, just like the ajira flight 316. So maybe, when MIB and Jacob were looking at the ship in the horizon, it was their present time, but the ship got into warmhole and ended up in the past or future, just when there was a huge hurricane.

warningtrax said...

Although it may be impossible to determine whether or not we saw the Black Rock off the sunny coast during The Incident, I believe that it’s worth noting that during this time period, a sailing vessel of the design of the Black Rock is about the only way Jacob can get people into the vicinity of the island-- no hot air balloons, Beechcrafts or commercial airliners yet. That leads me to believe that the ship shown in The Incident could easily not be the Black Rock.

Due to the Jacob’s reaction to Richard’s attack and Jacob’s later conversation with MIB, I believe Richard’s attack marked MIB’s first attempt on Jacob’s life. Although unsuccessful, I think it showed us a point of escalation in the struggle between MIB and Jacob. I wonder how many other attempts were made until Ben (MIB) was successful in 2007?

For admittedly unclear reasons, I’m starting to think that MIB represents the absolved sins of Jacob somehow exorcised(?) yet not destroyed. The now bodiless black smoke of evil is free to find new hosts and continue to exist, but cannot escape the island. A possible end game would be that MIB must return to the body of Jacob-- with Jacob still in there as well to retain the balance. Hmm.....

eddy said...

lostpedia confirms that it was the BR that was seen off the coast in sunny climes, as does Darlton, and then a storm blew in. i guess i was kinda leaning towards that since Curt always says - see what the narrative tells us, and there is no other ship and it was hard to introduce another one like the BR. anyway, knowing that, i still believe that the writers wanted to "kill two birds with one stone" and used the giant wave to propel the BR inland and also bring down the statue. is that the end of the topic? hehe love how we go on. i'll go with Dan and what he said re water always wins. i say it was less of the BR and more so the wave (immense force behind a wave like that) that brought down the statue.

Ryan said...

It seems to me that even though Jacob was bringing people to the island that he wasn't searching for candidates to replace himself.

I think the point may be that is was the starting point of that. MIB had never tried to kill Jacob before and this spurred Jacob to start treating things differently from then on with Richard as his go-between. He realized that sooner or later MIB would succeed so that's when he started considering that it would be a good idea to have a back-up plan just in case. Further to that he realized that if MIB would just kill turn around and them they would be outmatched so he further planned a way that MIB could finally be defeated once and for all. What this means I don't know. Possibly to find a way for MIB to be let go and replaced with a new person representing the darkness. John Locke maybe?

Curt said...

That's a very good point

Anonymous said...

i have an observation

we now now that Jacob is saving the world by keeping MIB on the island

and we know from revious seasons that Desmond was told that he had to push the button to save the world

so is there any link between these two things ?

warningtrax said...


MS. HAWKING: Well, I know your name as well as I know that you that don't ask Penny to marry you. In fact, you break her heart. Well, breaking her heart is, of course, what drives you in a few short years from now to enter that sailing race -- to prove her father wrong -- which brings you to the island where you spend the next 3 years of your life entering numbers into the computer until you are forced to turn that failsafe key. And if you don't do those things, Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead. So give me that sodding ring.

I think Desmond turning the failsafe key was immeasurably more important than him pushing the button.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately that episode of LOST got erased off my DVR but I could swear that as the ship is on the wave as it's surging and before it hits the huge statue it shows the ship's name as Black Rock during the incident.

Anonymous said...

I replayed the episode on ABC.COM and indeed they show the ship's name clearly three times. The first time you see the ship they scroll across it at night and you can barely see it reflected by the lightning, you can see it in the morning shot after the ship is washed ashore, and they show it again in a day shot after the first attack of the smoke creature.

An interesting connection I'm making is the ship crashes into the statue of Sobek, the crocodile god, and there's many times the smoke creature sounds like a crocodile.

Anonymous said...

whidmore is sided with MIB... that is why he got kicked off the island - he is doublecrossing sawyer. he didn't aske sawyer to bring MIB to him... that was sawyer's idea...frankly, i don't think MIB can get off the island to get to hydra....